TWO NYPD officers executed because of Ferguson decision,

[JRuby]

I read a long article the other day detailing the efforts a department went to in order to get rid of an officer they felt was not serving the public well. The particular newspaper is very anti-police. The article detailed how numerous officers involved reported his wrongdoing, advising he should not be working in the profession. Ultimately he was removed. Guess what? The newspaper was complaining about how all the officers were out to get him.

Contrary to popular (and media) belief, bad officers are reported all the time. Many are failed during their training (many of these are good folks, just at the time of their training period were not ready for a job in LE). Enter labor unions and the challenges of firing government workers. Oh, and the guarantee of the employee suing to get their job back.

Another situation from a department; officer fired for peeping. He is truly a sex offender in the eyes of most. Guess what again? Got his job back because it didn't happen on duty. I don't know of a single person on the department who, a) though he should be working and b) wanted to work with him.

Most would be shocked at the number of officer who are fired for cause, their peers agree that they should not be wearing a badge, yet they are required to be hired back by their departments. Yet all I hear about is their brother and sister officers are covering for them. I'm calling BS.

Who do you think created and supports the unions doing the rehiring of these bad police officers?

 

[Dave Workman]

No surprise: NY gunman had lengthy criminal, mental illness history

The biggest non-surprise of Saturday's high-profile double police slaying in New York is that the gunman not only had a history of arrests and had spent time behind bars, he also reportedly had mental problems, according to the New York Post.


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[OLDNEWBIE]

Who do you think created and supports the unions doing the rehiring of these bad police officers?

The same people complaining and protesting the loudest?

 

[JRuby]

Absolutely wrong - it is the police departments themselves. and the LEO.

 

[OLDNEWBIE]

Also ultimately the citizens themselves have overly empowered (through votes) the Public Sector Unions.
Difficult to fire bad apples and over the top benefits keep the bad apples from quitting jobs they are unsuited for.
Sort of like the Federal Govt. Bad job performance is not a reason to fire someone. A Major infraction is required and sometimes that ain't enough.

 

[JRuby]

My dad used to work for the UAW and many things were pushed through that my dad did not want to support but let there be no doubt the union was there because the workers wanted it to protect themselves.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

"We're ALL targets and "The Enemy" as far as the police are concerned. That's how they are being trained."

You know, I just reviewed the 480 hours of LE training I conducted this year, in different states, and I'm sorry, just can't find the 'treat the public as the enemy' part in my material. Funny, I never received this training either. Must have missed the memo.

Few officers ever shoot their gun. Most that have to, only do it once. Almost all of those events are very clear cut necessary and justified lethal force events. It's only a small percentage, of an already small percentage, of OIS cases that are up for debate (by a rational mind). To morph the uncommon (and not to be tolerated) improper use of force events into "citizens of all colors being beaten and shot with impunity" well, it's just factually not true based on the incredibly low number of events.

In each and every high profile case I've read about in the last couple of years the police officers involved walk away exonerated because they "followed their training and complied with department policy". Now, what part of that training says that the only way to deal with an unarmed naked man standing on top of a police car is to shoot him? What part of that training says that urinating in public, failing to signal for a right turn, or whittling on a piece of wood in public is cause to use lethal force? You and Dave say that the training isn't what I've described, that it doesn't teach that kind of behavior. And yet, when the investigation is concluded the report invariably says that the officers involved acted according to their training, and complied with department policy. So which is it?

 

[Monica Cowles]

Honestly...how clearly can it be explained, but not understood?

People don't die for petty crimes, they die for being narcissistic, violent, out of control jerks who either resist lawful arrest or attack cops. Their stupid behavior puts law enforcement officers just doing their jobs in enough danger that they have to use deadly force to protect themselves.

I tried to use small words so you could understand....

 

[ZigZagZeke]

"People don't die for petty crimes..."

Where have you been for the last 10 years of Pacific Northwest policing? Do I really have to drag out the examples? A guy sitting in car NOT moving is shot and killed. A mental patient urinates in the street and is taken down so violently that he dies. That's apparently OK with you. It's not with me. I've had enough of hair trigger loonies in uniform. A kid during a traffic stop is shot in the head with his hands cuffed behind his back. Small enough words for you? Look up a few of these cases.

 

[WillametteWill]

Notice by your admission you point out high profile cases. For every one of these there are thousands of similar events that never make the news because officers that could have used more force were able to find another way. Unfortunately, that doesn't always work. What you also don't read about are the officers injured and sometimes killed in these situations.

Ever watched unarmed, naked men toss several large officer around like toys? I have. It just takes a second for one of them to grab one of their guns, sticks or something else and harm or kill them or an innocent bystander.

What you have to do is separate the cause for the contact with what transpires during. If a suspect is shot during a car stop for speed...he didn't get shot because he was speeding! But that is what you read in the paper and see on the news.

 

[forefathersrback]

Honestly...how clearly can it be explained, but not understood?

People don't die for petty crimes, they die for being narcissistic, violent, out of control jerks who either resist lawful arrest or attack cops. Their stupid behavior puts law enforcement officers just doing their jobs in enough danger that they have to use deadly force to protect themselves.

I tried to use small words so you could understand....

Monica, NOT true. There have been plenty of people that have died that were not criminal by any means of the word. LEO, has shot & killed, & wounded plenty of people that were not involved in any CRIME, what so ever. Christopher Dorner case in point: two women who were shot for being in an allegedly similar truck, as Dorner was driving. That is another example of the B.S that has, and continues to go on. Not only that, some LEO have an us against them mentality. Not all of course. I am assuming that you have never been pulled over by the puffy chested. If you're in the need of cases to research. I can post you plenty to read.

 

[defending fathers 1787]

People do die for petty crimes or no crimes ! But...

I think the 80/20 rule of performance applies to LEO as well as every other profession. The differences are the public consequences of errors. Several of the most talked about police shootings involving criminals are legitimate shoots, but unfortunately they lit the fire. Some of the population and the Federal govt. have latched onto them.

The real tinder and kindling come from other past events that are similar to the BB gun in Walmart in Ohio or some of the Albuquerque New Mexico shootings over the past two years...etc...etc...or the kid in Georgia who answered his door with a white Wii remote and was killed. Events like these get people angry and once someone is really mad, they stop examining the facts of the next case.

FYI I was looking at a BB gun during the same time period at Walmart and it could have been myself. Mr. Crawford did not have a chance. I have seen SWAT instruct other agencies on commands and barring any new exculpatory evidence in that case, I do not see how that guy in Walmart could have heard and responded to any commands in that nano second.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/24/john-crawford-air-rifle-video_n_5878022.html

 

[forefathersrback]

When you are pulled over by the LEO, for some alleged traffic infraction, and they ask you.."where are you coming from, and or where are you going to." Do you really feel that you NEED to tell them that. I don't, won't, and never will! It's NONE of their DAMN business!!! So does that make me a narcissistic violent,out of control jerk? I think not!!!! I am not into SS tactics. If some of you are ok with that, then by all means continue on.

 

[OLDNEWBIE]

When you are pulled over by the LEO, for some alleged traffic infraction, and they ask you.."where are you coming from, and or where are you going to." Do you really feel that you NEED to tell them that. I don't, won't, and never will! It's NONE of their DAMN business!!! So does that make me a narcissistic violent,out of control jerk? I think not!!!! I am not into SS tactics. If some of you are ok with that, then by all means continue on.

It's one of those things, I don't want them pulling me over thinking I'm drunk because I swerved a bit. But I do want them to get the real drunks off the road. Those questions help them determine if a breathalyzer is the next step I guess.
Unfortunately though the job attracts a certain amount of mouthy power trippers, things seem better now but I'm getting older and my point of view is skewed.

I hate to defend Cops, I was harassed and profiled plenty in my younger days but I was a bit of a menace then too! And yes back in the 1970s they thought nothing of slamming you to the ground or pulling a gun on you willy nilly. As a young teen trying to sneak into a Drag Race event, that happened to me. And I'm white LOL! Many other run ins too, list of grievances is long with me but also got let off a few times too! But I digress.

These two cases? Resisting arrest or attacking an officer! Good luck not getting hurt or shot! Being Black doesn't give you special privileges. I'm sure the Cops didn't want to kill them.

Do bad Police exist? Of course. Do some scared/stupid trigger happy cops kill or shoot innocent people? you betcha!

Two good examples among many:
The mistaken truck/Dorner shooting and the recent on video shooting of a black man pulled over for a seat belt violation. Cop told him to get his wallet then shot him when he reached in the truck to get it!

Maybe it's cameras everywhere but things are getting better and the % of stops that turn out right vs wrongful shootings/deaths etc. is pretty good. Policing isn't an exact science. A good portion of the public are Jerks and I wouldn't want the job.
Maybe that should be the #1 criteria for being a Cop?

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. This is a white kid, handcuffed, and unarmed. He's stopped for suspected drunk driving near his home. A cop gets his gun caught on a broken car mirror at the scene, starts screaming that the kid tried to grab his gun. While the kid's family is watching he puts his gun to the victim's temple, has one misfire and then pulls the trigger a second time. He was completely exonerated within 48 hours and is still on the force. Yes, let's give him a pass because he's a "hero" and he deals mostly with people we don't like. Does that about sum up your position, Monica?

http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...police-killed-my-son-110038.html#.U_eLE_ldXTo

 

[Just Jim]

Are there bad cops?you bet there are. There are really bad people in every occupation. Very few cops are bad people. They do what they are told to do.

What you cop haters fail to reason is that cops are the tools of your politicions. They do as they are told, they enforce the laws they are told to. Laws written by politicions to control you. If you want change then change politicions.

How stupid can people be to protest the cops? The cops don't write the laws. Protest the law makers!! When the left went to Wall Street to protest they protested the bankers they went to the bankers homes not to the banks.

Now just keep watching as the useful idiots play right into the hands that are playing them. There will be a move to nationalize our local cops and put them under federal control. You think you have bad policing now just wait till the bureaucrats run your city police.

 

[Monica Cowles]

When you are pulled over by the LEO, for some alleged traffic infraction, and they ask you.."where are you coming from, and or where are you going to." Do you really feel that you NEED to tell them that. I don't, won't, and never will! It's NONE of their DAMN business!!! So does that make me a narcissistic violent,out of control jerk? I think not!!!! I am not into SS tactics. If some of you are ok with that, then by all means continue on.

The problem appears to be with authority in general, not just with LE.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. This is a white kid, handcuffed, and unarmed. He's stopped for suspected drunk driving near his home. A cop gets his gun caught on a broken car mirror at the scene, starts screaming that the kid tried to grab his gun. While the kid's family is watching he puts his gun to the victim's temple, has one misfire and then pulls the trigger a second time. He was completely exonerated within 48 hours and is still on the force. Yes, let's give him a pass because he's a "hero" and he deals mostly with people we don't like. Does that about sum up your position, Monica?

http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...police-killed-my-son-110038.html#.U_eLE_ldXTo

There are jerks on both sides of the coin....hence the title of this thread...demonizing an entire segment of the population on the actions of a few, is unreasonable and illogical--you don't work for the media, do you??

 

[Just Jim]

Last time I am going to post in this thread. If you don't like the cops then don't do stuff that draws their attention. Yep I have been pulled over for a tail light and for speeding. I was respectful and treated them the way I would be treated and received no ticket on either stop.

If a particular cop is bad enough to warrant a protest then you don't go to the police department, you go to city hall. That's what is stupid about protesters, they got no fricking idea who is responsible for the problems. It's their bosses you need to protest and have them get control. Have them change the laws from being revenue collection and there will be less interaction with the public. It's law makers that are the problem, not law enforcement.

 

[JRuby]

Honestly...how clearly can it be explained, but not understood?

People don't die for petty crimes, they die for being narcissistic, violent, out of control jerks who either resist lawful arrest or attack cops. Their stupid behavior puts law enforcement officers just doing their jobs in enough danger that they have to use deadly force to protect themselves.

I tried to use small words so you could understand....

So you support cops even when they are in the wrong? I support LEO when they are in the right as I do any individual but I cannot support their militarization and treatment of an individual as an enemy until that individual acts like the enemy. I cannot support an LEO who's choice it is to rely on a firearm or brutality as the first choice for dealing with an unknown situation. If the LEO is scared doing his job maybe just maybe he needs a new carreer Perhaos you might understand those words.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

If you don't like the cops then don't do stuff that draws their attention.

So the solution is just to live in fear and keep your head down, don't look anybody in the eye, and shuffle along like all the other serfs? Yeah, got it.