National Trump To Ban ‘Bump Stock’ Devices Used in Las Vegas Shooting

[The Heretic]

It is probably worth noting that Trump today announced he wants and end to "Gun Free Zones". I'll say again, like him or not, trust him or not, don't pass judgment until you see what he actually does. Removing gun free zones is a good step for our side, and a loss for gun control.

1) Trump has already acted. It is a done deal. It is now up to Sessions and the ATF.

2) Gun free zones are a feel good thing, not really something that impacts most gun owners, especially if the zone is a state zone and you have a concealed carry permit. I rarely carry a firearm off my property. It is even more rare that I go into a federal facility covered by the federal gun free zone laws, and most of those (prisons/etc., courts/etc.) I really don't want to carry anyway as it isn't a good idea IMO.

If we are going to be doing trade offs, lets get the better deal and not just call something a win because it gets rid of a mostly inconsequential law that affects very few people.

Stop the actions on binary triggers, take suppressors off the NFA list - those are things I want, not 'wins' in name only.

 

[The Heretic]

Trump isnt a dictator- yet- so he cannot "ban bump stocks" without the compliance of Congress. If this goes thru it is doubtful that I will vote for him again, or any other RINO who supports this. :::sigh:::

Watch him.

He has basically said "hold my beer" and now it is up to Sessions and the ATF. They will do it - they just needed the support of the POTUS. My bet is that Congress will fall in lockstep too. Very few of them are leaders, most are politicians who don't have the cojones to stand up to criticism, much less the fear of losing an election. Most of those that do, have already said they won't run for re-election and/or are retiring. Paul is the only one I can think of off the top of my head who will resist.

 

[etrain16]

1) Trump has already acted. It is a done deal. It is now up to Sessions and the ATF.

2) Gun free zones are a feel good thing, not really something that impacts most gun owners, especially if the zone is a state zone and you have a concealed carry permit. I rarely carry a firearm off my property. It is even more rare that I go into a federal facility covered by the federal gun free zone laws, and most of those (prisons/etc., courts/etc.) I really don't want to carry anyway as it isn't a good idea IMO.

If we are going to be doing trade offs, lets get the better deal and not just call something a win because it gets rid of a mostly inconsequential law that affects very few people.

Stop the actions on binary triggers, take suppressors off the NFA list - those are things I want, not 'wins' in name only.

Gun free zones stop many from carrying that might otherwise carry - it also widely announces a soft target, simply by the presence of the sign. Sure, some people will still carry, but to the bad guys - they see an unprotected target. It's hardly a feel good measure when we know that 98% of mass shootings have happened in 'gun free zones'. I have to disagree with you on this one - it's more than a feel good measure.

And I agree with you on the binary triggers and suppressors. Unfortunately, a relatively small number of people in the country care about those things and just can't seem to drum up enough support even in a Republican controlled congress to make it happen.

Back to bump stocks - if they want a ban, congress is going to have to get involved as that will likely require a new law to be passed. And that's why I say it's not set in stone yet. They can change definitions and how the ATF interprets the bump stock, but if they want a true ban, that will take congressional action. And while support seems to be high, even among Republicans, for a bump stock ban, I'm not sure if it will ever get that far. Fact is if they don't ban them entirely and then enforce a mandatory turn in, they'll never get rid of them. It's nothing more than a feel good measure anyway. One shooting was done with bump stocks, hardly a critical emergency. I still think Trump is maneuvering this so he can say he'd done something, even though it affects a very few people. At least until you consider the potential slippery slope - but that all depends on the manner and language of any bill they come up with.

 

[The Heretic]

I would not be surprised that the "bumpstock" ban winds up in court, but to do so, somebody will have to be arrested first.

I do think that Sessions and the ATF will give it a try. Even though the ATF has already given these devices their official blessing, I am guessing that they would like nothing more than to clamp down on these "loopholes" in the law, even if it means going back on what they said before.

It will be a mess because of the blessing and because there are thousands with these devices, and the different types of devices (this will cover triggers too) and because of the law and because of the necessary ambiguity of the directive. Since it is a directive and not law, it will probably not grandfather in existing possession - but that is to be seen.

That aside - my main comment is that "I told you so"; i.e., that Trump would cave at the first convenient time. He is not to be trusted and neither is Congress.

Who is better? Someone that you know is your enemy and you know what they will do? Or someone who you thought was your friend and who stabs you in the back?

For those who are still making excuses for Trump:

 

[Goosebrown]

Bump stocks are a hack to get around established and fair law. Banning them makes sense but the ATF can't do it because if the way the NFA is written. Congress has to do it and I have no doubt they will in the end.

 

[The Heretic]

Bump stocks are a hack to get around established and fair law. Banning them makes sense but the ATF can't do it because if the way the NFA is written. Congress has to do it and I have no doubt they will in the end.

As said before, this is not just about bumpstocks. Personally I do not like them, but I do support the right of any law abiding citizen to own them and I can see where they might be fun to some.

This is also about ANY device that will increase the rate of fire of a semi-auto. That includes triggers of various types. Probably will include non-binary triggers too.

If you had bothered to look at the text of any of the proposed or enacted laws to "ban bumpstocks" then you would know that. WA state SB 5992:

A trigger modification device is defined as any part or combination of parts, designed or intended to accelerate the rate of fire of a firearm, but does not convert the firearm into a machine gun, including:

any part, or combination of parts, designed or intended for use in modifying a firearm to use the recoil of the firearm to produce a rapid succession of trigger functions; or any part, or combination of parts, designed or intended for use in modifying a firearm to produce multiple trigger functions through the use of an external mechanism.

Effective July 1, 2018, it is unlawful for any person to manufacture or sell any trigger modification device.

Effective July 1, 2019, it is unlawful for any person to manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in their possession or control a trigger modification device or to assemble or repair any trigger modification device.

All trigger modification devices are declared to be contraband and may be seized by law enforcement whenever found. The manufacture, sale, purchase or possession of a trigger modification device is a Class C felony and a Seriousness Level III. Using a trigger modification device in the commission or furtherance of a felony is a Class A felony and a Seriousness Level VII.

http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2017-18/Pdf/Bill Reports/Senate/5992 SBR LAW 18.pdf

It seems to me that we not only have to educate the people who don't own guns, but also those who DO own guns.

 

[Goosebrown]

As said before, this is not just about bumpstocks.

As said before, this is not just about bumpstocks.

It seems to me that we not only have to educate the people who don't own guns, but also those who DO own guns.

Nope. It is just about bumpstocks and probably binary triggers

A replacement trigger is not included in that by any wording.

I agree we need to educate gun owners.

 

[The Heretic]

Replacement trigger:

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/triggers-parts/triggers/ar-15-enhanced-triggers-prod67223.aspx?avs|Manufacturer_1=GEISSELE+AUTOMATICS+LLC

"Rapid Fire Trigger"

There are quite a number of these triggers that are not binary that increase the rate of fire. Simply lightening the trigger pull can equate to increasing the rate of fire.

For that matter, a muzzle brake or compensator can be said to increase the rate of fire by enabling the user to recover from recoil faster.

 

[Argonaut]

Replacement trigger:

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/triggers-parts/triggers/ar-15-enhanced-triggers-prod67223.aspx?avs|Manufacturer_1=GEISSELE+AUTOMATICS+LLC

"Rapid Fire Trigger"

There are quite a number of these triggers that are not binary that increase the rate of fire. Simply lightening the trigger pull can equate to increasing the rate of fire.

For that matter, a muzzle brake or compensator can be said to increase the rate of fire by enabling the user to recover from recoil faster.

So........you put your your tin foil hat back on this morning this morning..........

 

[DuneHopper]

Ok I can make a bumpfire in a couple hours and one could pin it so it was solid.
Canada does this as well as Komifornia allows pinned mags. I am sure there are loops holes to this even before it passed. The banned hicaps and some removable mag ( so called ) in Komifornia. People just built stripper clip setups. When will the get it, you won't stop anything with new laws until we enforce all the old ones.

 

[The Heretic]

So........you put your your tin foil hat back on this morning this morning..........

It is interesting to hear a gun owner argue that anti-gunners who want nothing better than to ban all guns, will take the "reasonable" approach to interpretation of legislation and that they won't go for every inch that they can.

And on top of that, decry gun owners who do not trust the anti-gunners to not take that view.

So yeah - if you call that "putting on my tin foil hat" - guilty as charged. I've only observed this behavior and approach for 45+ years now, and observed the history before that.

Yes, anti-gunners are unreasonable from our perspective (and from theirs they consider us to be unreasonable too). Yes, I take the view that they want all they can get. Over the years I have observed that whenever I expect others to think a certain way because that would be the approach that I would take to solve a problem, that I am much safer to assume that others will take the opposite approach.

Better to have a tin hat than to bury my head in the sand and ignore the threat.

We truly are our own worst enemy.

 

[MasterChief]

 

[The Heretic]

View attachment 433339

Stealing this

 

[Raidingtime]

Seriously, I do not think it would. They are way beyond thinking straight. That said, I approve of public execution of the shooter - just don't think it would be a deterance to others like him.

Or how about we fund mental health care more? Maybe american communities need to reach out to these "problem children" and find ways to support and properly nurture their upbringing?

What happened in Florida wasn't a result of poor gun control. The kids parents died, lived through a terrible and neglectful childhood, and the community around him failed him. The way to reduce school shootings isn't by taking away the rights of Americans, it's done by addressing the roof of the problem: poor mental health care and people being bubblegumty to other people.

If we're going to hold anyone responsible for this it should be the school counselors, his family, and teachers that failed him. Perhaps by supporting these people now we can prevent atrocities like this from happening again.

 

[Argonaut]

The Heretic@ I have and continue to defend the constitution including the second amendment in more ways than you will be able to in your entire life. Your incendiary ideas and false assumptions are counter productive. There is no reason that bump stocks should have ever been ruled outside the NFA act in the first place, they are a silly non useful gadget only used by immature silly young boys playing out there own Rambo fantasies. This exclusion can be accomplished by the bureaucrats by a simple change in definition. There are no bumpstock manufacturers with the capital to fight the definition change in court. It will not include common accessories or useful modifications done on firearms like improved triggers. The people that are dangerous to the 2nd amendment here are the criminal mass shooters, people that trash the enviorment, and silly boys that misuse guns to creat a nussance or fear in the general public. As I said here before, this regulation will be written by the NRA in conjunction with conservitive politicians, it will not be the old regulation that you hand wringers like to quote written by anti gun people. Trump continues to talk about hardening schools by controlled access, arming appropriate teachers and with actual armed guards. Hardly the program that would be proposed by an anti gun proponent. You are dangerous because you continue to spread false stories and news that will gain some traction with less informed individuals. That has the possibility to derail the actual attempt to minimize the effect of anti gun hysteria that we have to deal with right now. make sure you have an extinguisher handy for when your hair catches fire.

 

[The Heretic]

I don't know what went on inside the kid's head.

But I will say that there are literally billions of people out there who have had much worse lives who do not go around massacring innocent children because they got their feelings hurt.

The only thing I can think of that might lift some of the blame on the shooter would be if he had some kind of chemical imbalance in his brain (or the drugs they were giving him caused it) or if he was otherwise born with some kind of mental problems (and even then, there are millions of people who have mental issues that do not go around shooting innocent children).

Generally, people are responsible for their actions, no matter how rough their life has been.

What I DO know, is that it wasn't the gun that caused him to shoot those children.

 

[nammac]

I don't know what went on inside the kid's head.

But I will say that there are literally billions of people out there who have had much worse lives who do not go around massacring innocent children because they got their feelings hurt.

The only thing I can think of that might lift some of the blame on the shooter would be if he had some kind of chemical imbalance in his brain (or the drugs they were giving him caused it) or if he was otherwise born with some kind of mental problems (and even then, there are millions of people who have mental issues that do not go around shooting innocent children).

Generally, people are responsible for their actions, no matter how rough their life has been.

What I DO know, is that it wasn't the gun that caused him to shoot those children.

 

[Goosebrown]

Replacement trigger:

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/triggers-parts/triggers/ar-15-enhanced-triggers-prod67223.aspx?avs|Manufacturer_1=GEISSELE+AUTOMATICS+LLC

"Rapid Fire Trigger"

There are quite a number of these triggers that are not binary that increase the rate of fire. Simply lightening the trigger pull can equate to increasing the rate of fire.

For that matter, a muzzle brake or compensator can be said to increase the rate of fire by enabling the user to recover from recoil faster.

Not covered. Not a problem.

 

[The Heretic]

The Heretic@ I have and continue to defend the constitution including the second amendment in more ways than you will be able to in your entire life.

You would like to think you have and will. But you don't know me and I do not know you - so don't pretend that you do.

Your incendiary ideas and false assumptions are counter productive. There is no reason that bump stocks should have ever been ruled outside the NFA act in the first place, they are a silly non useful gadget only used by immature silly young boys playing out there own Rambo fantasies. This exclusion can be accomplished by the bureaucrats by a simple change in definition. There are no bumpstock manufacturers with the capital to fight the definition change in court. It will not include common accessories or useful modifications done on firearms like improved triggers. The people that are dangerous to the 2nd amendment here are the criminal mass shooters, people that trash the enviorment, and silly boys that misuse guns to creat a nussance or fear in the general public. As I said here before, this regulation will be written by the NRA in conjunction with conservitive politicians, it will not be the old regulation that you hand wringers like to quote written by anti gun people. Trump continues to talk about hardening schools by controlled access, arming appropriate teachers and with actual armed guards. Hardly the program that would be proposed by an anti gun proponent. You are dangerous because you continue to spread false stories and news that will gain some traction with less informed individuals. That has the possibility to derail the actual attempt to minimize the effect of anti gun hysteria that we have to deal with right now.

'Conservitive' politicians. LOL!

Those politicians are no better than the socialists on the left. Most on both sides of the aisle are corrupt and do not care about their constituents. They only care about remaining in power and the money from lobbyists.

I have rarely seen any legislation that comes out of WA DC (or state capitals for that matter) that does more good than harm.

So because this gun control legislation/etc. comes from the NRA and Trump and the GOP, it is supposed to be good for us?

Really? This is the line you are taking?

This is what is wrong with 'conservitives' - bad legislation is bad legislation, no matter where it comes from. This is a step backwards, not forwards.

"Advance to the rear" said the general.

 

[The Heretic]

Not covered. Not a problem.