This is why we need videos.

[NSDQ]

Did you look at the link?

Scene 1; Two innocent cops sitting in their car, someone walks up and 'executes' (aka muuuuurders) them.
Scene 2; A cocky idiot being non-compliant and behaving in a manner that could easily (by logical peeps) be construed to be reaching for a firearm around his waist, gets a lethal dose of lead. Unfortunate choices bring unfortunate consequences.

Sorry, but my sympathies are firmly aligned with the law enforcement officers attempting to do their dangerous jobs. Guess that makes me a bad person.

You do you, I'll do me.

I disagree. Being non-compliant is common in all forms of history. People resist arrest ALL the time. Protestors block roads and chain themselves to trees. Police don't shoot them. If the officers responded to a shooting or an armed robbery, I can understand being overly cautious but this was simply a BIKE theft. A 200 dollar bike is not worth shooting someone over.

Officers have multiple forms of non lethals. Obviously the suspect was confused as to why the police had their firearms drawn. Probably because they hadn't done anything wrong other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I've cleared houses in BAGHDAD with angry punching Iraqi's and my soldiers were never RATTLED like these cops were. You can't really tell from the video but there could have been language barrier, they could have been drinking, who knows. None of which is their fault. The guy should have kept his hands up.

This will lead to a wrongful death suit and most likely the city or town will be sued for a few million.

 

[decklin]

Many of you should be ashamed.
You have the ability to look up the facts of this shooting. And you don't.
Some of the comments I'm reading are horrifying.
He did not steal a bike. He was helping to look for the bike. The bike belonged to his friend.
He didn't speak English. He was attempting to communicate. Those "gang" gestures and the "tough guy" attitude was him trying to communicate where he had already searched.
He was executed for it.
None of you seem to realize these "officers" struck the man standing in the background. What did he do?
Why did they respond to a bike theft with drawn guns? Why did they shoot? His hands were in the open the whole time!
Shame.

 

[Browning55]

I don't know if this will help but looking through information from the LA Times I noticed the police were mistakenly dispatched to a "robbery" and that certainly didn't help things. Then – as recounted here - http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...n-officers-tactics-20150715-story.html#page=1
----------------------------
Gardena police Sgt. Christopher Cuff saw two men riding bicycles east on Redondo Beach Boulevard. The men were friends of the bike theft victim and were searching for the missing bicycle. Mistaking them for the thieves, Cuff ordered the men to stop and put their hands up, according to a district attorney's memo written by a prosecutor who reviewed the police videos.

Ricardo Diaz Zeferino, whose brother owned the stolen bicycle, ran up to his friends as they stood before the police car. A dash camera video captured him yelling at Cuff, who screamed in English and Spanish for Diaz Zeferino to stop advancing, the district attorney's memo said.

Diaz Zeferino raised his hands, pounded his chest with both hands and said something that was inaudible, the memo said. One of his friends later told investigators that Diaz-Zeferino was explaining that police had stopped the wrong people.

Two more police cars arrived, and three officers emerged with guns drawn.

The patrol car video showed Diaz Zeferino dropping his hands and reaching to his right waistband or rear right pocket and making a tossing motion, dropping an object on the ground, the district attorney's memo said. He raised his hands, then repeated the move and removed something from his left rear pocket, the memo said.

"You do it again, you're going to get shot," yelled an officer on the video, according to the memo.
Diaz Zeferino removed his baseball hat and lowered his hands. As he began to raise his hands again, three of the officers opened fire, the district attorney's memo said.
-------------------------------
That doesn't answer all questions and others have already pointed out things both sides could have done differently that would have hopefully altered the outcome. I ask myself what I myself should do in a similar situation whether here or in another country. The best I can do is recognize police pointing a gun at me as international sign language for hands up and don't move – and hope for restraint on the part of the police.

 

[Trailboss]

If the kid was mentally slow and didn't obey, he would be shot?

If the kid was deaf and didn't obey, he would be shot?

If the kid was under the influence, he would be shot?

If the kid spoke a language other than Spanish or English, he would be shot?

If the kid had any one of hundreds of different medical conditions, he would be shot?

Something is wrong with the system. The officers killed an unarmed innocent and should face charges.

 

[40calruler]

I do not think the cops should be above consequences for a huge mistake. The issue keeps being that people do not know what it is like in that area for police. So what? They took the job. I work downtown at night often and kick bums and meth heads out of my properties all night long. Never had to shoot anyone even when they did get crazy.....Used pepper spray.

So why does this guy get a pass because his job is stressful? If it was a regular joe they would make an example of them with a poor judgement shooting. The cop should be made an example of. No matter his thoughts or level of stress he was WRONG. Guy was pissed that he was getting harassed by the cops for no reason. I would be irate as well.

A bad shooting is a bad shooting. No excuses can be made when you take a life. There is no second chance or "next time do it different" in killing a man. Better be sure they need to die to protect you or yours no matter if you have a badge or not. They had non lethal options on their belt and plenty of time for one of the officers to use them. Just bad judgement all the way around.

I was not going to comment here but people defending the cop annoys me. Police get enough leeway without your excuses for them.

 

[hker71]

Lake Oswego is a pretty rough town. I can see the similarities with South Central Las Angeles.

 

[40calruler]

Well Lake Oswego is a pretty darn safe place. I rarely even hear sirens but have only lived here a bit over a month. Where I keep my family safe vs where I work are very different. Spend a night in the high rise parking garages where people cook meth on the roof tops. See how "safe" you feel about that area.

I have had guns and knives pulled on me at work. I supervise a maintenance team for a big property management firm and have had guys get beaten by skin heads just because they are black. Not exactly what I consider a safe working environment. Yet even though I carry nobody gets shot!

I have to call the cops almost nightly when I am there graveyard shift. My crew calls me with security concerns often in the middle of the night with sirens blaring to tell me of an indecent so it is not exactly Lake Oswego there.

 

[RVTECH]

I was not going to comment here but people defending the cop annoys me.

Especially when the 'defense' comes from two of the most time worn statements - "It looked like he was reaching for something' and 'He should have complied'. YES he should have complied but there were some very good reasons previously mentioned as to why he might not have complied with all the officer's directives. Reaching for something? - I could see in the bad video he was not reaching for something but regardless everybody who has an encounter with the cops is always 'reaching for something' Heck I recall it being mentioned in the recent pool incident (where the cop was throwing the girl around) "it looked like the guy was reaching for something" AND they were trying to 'flank the cops" - Yea uh huh - no doubt a tactical pool party contingency plan. My final question (and please any LEO jump in and correct me if I am wrong) but what ever happened to barricaded responses and not approaching until the suspect is in a supine position? I mean moving in on a suspect who is still non-compliant and unrestrained is NOT a smart move and is likely to exacerbate the situation.

 

[40calruler]

Especially when the 'defense' comes from two of the most time worn statements - "It looked like he was reaching for something' and 'He should have complied'. YES he should have complied but there were some very good reasons previously mentioned as to why he might not have complied with all the officer's directives. Reaching for something? - I could see in the bad video he was not reaching for something but regardless everybody who has an encounter with the cops is always 'reaching for something' Heck I recall it being mentioned in the recent pool incident (where the cop was throwing the girl around) "it looked like the guy was reaching for something" AND they were trying to 'flank the cops" - Yea uh huh - no doubt a tactical pool party contingency plan. My final question (and please any LEO jump in and correct me if I am wrong) but what ever happened to barricaded responses and not approaching until the suspect is in a supine position? I mean moving in on a suspect who is still non-compliant and unrestrained is NOT a smart move and is likely to exacerbate the situation.

Yep. I have read and read "he was reaching for something" Or "lack of compliance gets you shot".

Who in the hell do people think cops are? Slightly disobey by throwing around your arms over a bike theft and your dead? If they have that kind of authority we really need to ring in our officers that my effing taxes pay for. Guy made an awful judgement call and that is the bottom line. Needs a defense attorney not a bunch of "brothers" saying "you just do not understand...You... you do not live in that area". Yes they stutter when they talk in my mind. My response to that YOU DON'T KNOW MY LIFE SON!

Not being a cop does not make it so we do not all have to live through dangerous situations. We do. I get not as often but as I said that is what they signed up for. "To help people". How is this helping? How would letting him walk clean set an example for our future cops?

Someone needs to smack our current police around to show them they do not own the streets. They are there to help decent people. The dead guy was a decent guy who got pissed for being harassed and having guns pointed at him for no reason. I damn well would have been pissed to.

 

[BoonDocks36]

For the Record, no where in the Video, do any actions by those holding up their hands INDICATE, they were Not the robbers of the Bike.

Again For the Record, in some Areas, At Certain Times of the Day (Night Time) it is only Appropriate to be a bit Hyper Vigilant as a Law Enforcement Officer, being anything BUT Vigilant makes you dead, faster than any other thing.

Repeating that "For the Record" phrase... As soon as that punk lowered his hand, hat in hand, HE signed his Death Certificate ..... Whether ~that is Right~, Or Wrong, is besides the matter, His next Action could have been a Weapon, that Quick.

Dumb Hurts, Sometimes, it hurts permanently.

If I was the Supervising Officer, I would have the shooter Back in Remedial Officer Traing School.... But, it was a clean, honest, proper shooting.

philip.... YMMV

 

[Monica Cowles]

I might be a bit more sympathetic to those who are so hard on LEO if they still held their same opinion after going through an experience like this without shooting the 'bad guy' or getting shot themselves....

It's SO easy to quarterback from the keyboard...

 

[Nightcrawler]

Again, having your hands near your waistband is not justification for deadly force. Just like you or me.

LEO are trained to deal with non compliant individuals. And gimme a break with them having such a dangerous job. LE is about as dangerous as a grounds keeping and umpire.

How many groundskeepers or umpires have you heard of being ambushed at work or on their own time because of their line of work? Do you simply ignore the number of officers around the country being killed every single day?

I'm not naive or stupid enough to say that every use of force incident is proper or justified. At the same time, not every one is exactly the same and unjustified. At least acknowledge that the media is extremely biased in what and how they report. We only saw part of the Eric Garner video when in first happened.... then, when the entire video was released, it painted a little different picture.

Yes, there are people in law enforcement that probably shouldn't be, just like any other profession. I personally don't think they should hire anyone as an LEO until they are 30 years old. Learn some people and life skills first, before sending them out into the fun place this society has become.

 

[RVTECH]

I might be a bit more sympathetic to those who are so hard on LEO if they still held their same opinion after going through an experience like this

I watched the video and can appreciate your comparative reference however the 'simulated' situations were decidedly different than the 'bicycle' guys. They were not engaged in a fight or anything aggressive - quite frankly they appeared frightened and confused. The other simulated scenario IE the guy walking around the vehicle and then 'shooting' the 'cop' would have EASILY been avoided if the 'cop' had backed off, assessed the situation instead of hastily confronting the guy so called 'Casing' the cars in the parking lot - Is it unrealistic to believe LEOs do not necessarily have to brazenly approach a person with limited information (because nothing really MAY be happening at the time) and maybe gather information for a more pragmatic (and backed up) response? The lone LEO is at the is at the disadvantage. It has been determined in a fight or flight situation LEOs and servicepersons have died unnecessarily because of an innate need to take control of a situation they clearly could NOT control.

 

[RVTECH]

A bad shooting is a bad shooting. No excuses can be made when you take a life.

Yea and certainly nothing:

clean, honest, proper

About it.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

Obviously Ricardo Diaz Zeferino was going for a gat hidden in his "hat holster" . One cop got spooked by Top Job and the rest joined in with sympathetic gunfire. Sad.

 

[Browning55]

There is a lot of police training and retraining going on and that should continue. It's unavoidable that police will continue to confront innocent or uninvolved people when responding to reports.

Going forward - what do we teach our kids to help keep them safe?

 

[RVTECH]

Going forward - what do we teach our kids to help keep them safe?

More like what do we teach the parents? Maybe to provide a stable two parent household, maybe ensure their children are well cared for and stay in school, maybe lead by example by working and providing for them instead of existing on entitlements and maybe not having a passel of kids with different fathers only to have them turned out on the streets as wastrels and urchins

 

[Monica Cowles]

More like what do we teach the parents? Maybe to provide a stable two parent household, maybe ensure their children are well cared for and stay in school, maybe lead by example by working and providing for them instead of existing on entitlements and maybe not having a passel of kids with different fathers only to have them turned out on the streets as wastrels and urchins

Whoah!!!! I agree totally with you! Right here, in just this one little quote...

 

[NSDQ]

I might be a bit more sympathetic to those who are so hard on LEO if they still held their same opinion after going through an experience like this without shooting the 'bad guy' or getting shot themselves....

It's SO easy to quarterback from the keyboard...

I've quarterbacked against suicide vests, armed insurgents, convoys in the middle of Baghdad. East Rashid market all the way up to Sadr City. I've worked in some of the most dangerous places in the world. Deciding on friend or foe requires a willingness to not crack under pressure. I've worked checkpoints that required patiences and the benefit of the doubt. Even warning shots went ignored because Iraqi's had their music up too high on their radios. I had an LT that almost ordered the death of a van full of civilians because he didn't have the guts to wait another 3 seconds to follow proper ROE. You know what? We worked against language barriers and 140 degree heat but we still had enough common sense to shoot only when required. One civilian killed meant a whole family of future terrorists.

We were trained constantly for years to improve our situational awareness. Thirty additional days of ROE training in Kuwait where we practiced even more before being set into the sandbox. Yes, civilians die due to misunderstandings and shaky triggers but I can confidently say that when we fired it was because we were either being fired upon or exposure to risk to our safety had been exposed to cycle through the proper rules of engagement.

Whats the difference? Modern local LEO are the low end of the spectrum. Most police officers shoot first and ask questions later. Why? Because of super macho cowboy mentalities. Over half of all LEO belong to local agencies with fewer than 10 full time officers employed. This accounts for a real lack of experience and almost always translates into a lack of professionalism. Agencies with under 10 full time officers rank in the bottom in almost every state DOJ. Why? Because they get ridiculous funding per capita and are almost always plagued with nepotism/cronyism.

There were some 3 officers killed per roughly 100,000 by murder. Its actually one of the safest jobs according to the Occupational hazards statistics that insurance companies use to calculate your life insurance policies.
Heres a list of more more dangerous jobs per 100,000.

1. Logging workers: 128.8
2. Fishers and related fishing workers: 117
3. Aircraft pilot and flight engineers: 53.4
4. Roofers: 40.5
5. Structural iron and steel workers: 37
6. Refuse and recyclable material collectors: 27.1
7. Electrical power-line installers and repairers: 23
8. Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers: 22.1
9. Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers: 21.3
10. Construction laborers: 17.4

In Chicago alone, you are 3 times more likely to be killed as a citizen than an officer. Reality needs to flipping set in folks, Over hyper vigilante police officers with hair trigger fingers is not the way to police a society. The TRUTH is a majority haven't received quality engagement training since their academy.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Kinda the chicken or the egg thing eh?