The Direction of Law Enforcement

[Jammer Six]

I am against DOUBLE standards, not HIGHER standards.

If you create one standard for you, me, Skeeter and Booger, and another for LEOs, that's a double standard, however you word it.

If we use the same standards, Skeeter and Booger can become LEOs. That's beyond stupidity, and doesn't bear contemplation.

Citizens being held to a standard suitable for LEOs should never be tolerated by any thinking free citizen, LEOs allowed to fall to standards that any free man would tolerate is equally absurd.

They do not rule, they serve. Therefore, they must answer in ways that no free man would consider or tolerate.

If there isn't a double standard in your design, your police are de facto royalty.

 

[Swedish K]

Excellent thread. After working more than 15 years with Corrections its always good to see different perspectives. I often heard the arguments between the state police union and the corrections union as to who had the more dangerous job. On the one hand working inside the secure perimeter of a prison puts you in close contact with hundreds of known bad guys for 8+ hours every work day. On the other hand LE working out in the real world never know if those they encounter are your average citizen or possibly a career criminal with a warrant that will send them back to prison for the rest of their life and the will to do absolutely anything to avoid it.
From my experience, I feel that treating those that you deal with the way you would want to be treated can go a long way toward reducing your personal risk factors. I noticed that the old timer guards who formed relationships with the inmates in their care (read as earned respect by treating all equally and spoke to inmates as people not animals) tended to be well respected and rarely were targeted for attack by the various prison gangs. I'm not saying that it eliminated the risk, but the (usually newbie) guards that treated everyone like animals were far more often attacked by inmates and I often thought that poor treatment came off as a thin veil for an underlying fear. If you are afraid you shouldn't be working in that setting, especially in a position of (perceived) power. I know one plant manager who probably has generated more good tips about who is targeting who and who is holding drugs/weapons/cell phones for who and where than the entire investigations unit at that prison in the last 10 years. The best explanation I have is that he supervises more inmate workers than any other single manager and treats them (for the most part) like he does any other employee. Because they know he is always fair and straight with them they trust him and pass information to him. To be fair it is usually in their own interest as a gang war or high profile hit usually results in lockdowns which prevent them from working which prevents them from earning half time credits and getting out earlier.

Hope I didn't get too far off topic... carry on...

 

[wichaka]

hey wichaka & spitpatch, how many words per minute type? it would take me all afternoon to put that many words together. i appreciate your time.

I am of the hunt & peck order...if I ever had to take an actual typing class, it would really mess me up.

I used a lot of cut & paste from the RCW web site, as well as from the Tenn v Garner decision...no need to type all that, if its readily available to all on the net.

 

[michaels]

For double standards....

Let's say to become a surgeon you need to cut perfect.

A and B want to become surgeons.

A cuts perfect. B doesn't.

A becomes a surgeon, B doesn't.

That's an example of a higher standard.

Now let's say A cuts perfect, and B doesn't.

A becomes a surgeon on his merits.
B happens to be the son of someone in a position of power.
B becomes a surgeon, not from his merits, but because of favors owed,
etc.

That's a double standard.

These are my definitions of higher and double standards.

You will notice that there are different standards at work here.

 

[python287]

I spent 33 years in Law enforcement and I lived by the rule "Do the right thing for the right reasons" did I work with people who should have never been in LE ? Yes - they were a few. I also worked with people who were outstanding - did everything for the right reasons - treated people the way they should be treated- people in LE should always try to do the right thing - And it disturbs me when Officers abuse their position or the people they are sworn to protect.. Unfortunately Police see the worst of society - they also see the best. Shortly before I retired - a woman in church asked me why I was retiring ? I told her "how many dead bodies have you ever seen "? -She replied well None - to which I replied well I've seen hundreds and I'm tired of seeing them ! The trouble is that most people have no idea what the average police officer goes thru on a daily basis - and so does not understand the things they do sometimes. Are all they all perfect - no - but then who is ??

 

[cowboygraphics]

wichaka
Great post and ongoing dialog. Thank you.

Good news - I shortened my original lengthy post. Bad news - it is still too long.

My perspective is that many LE bureau's have switched to be a profit centers. County and city depts have our tax dollars doled to them to deliver services: "protect and serve". They had a relationship with the community and were a part of it. Now the emphasis seems to be to "generate revenue from the citizens". Whether it is for cool tools and equipment, facilities or pet programs - it is wrong. And the relationship has degraded to one of fear AND miss-trust.

Many rural sheriff's offices communicate that they can't come out to investigate small crimes, yet people see several deputies giving out parking tickets or sitting in speed traps (generating revenue).

Your "coaches" and "team owners" (as implied in your 01-06-2012*11:56 PM post) need to get things back on track. At a minimum the fans - the public supporting the "game" (pay taxes, influence public policy etc) need to get involved and have the bad coaches and team owners replaced/voted out!
Let the dedicated and well serving LEOs like you get back to adding value and services in our communities. Clean out any bad apples rather than risk spoiling the barrel.

 

[wichaka]

There are some very good caring folks on the job, one of the problems is the media seems to want to report the so called 'dirty laundry'.

How many negative news stories vs positive does one hear on a daily or weekly basis? And I'm not just talking about LE stories. Society has turned on itself so to speak. We tend to want to see fail way too much?

I would submit to anyone reading this...look into your own profession and see how many less than stellar people there are around you.

Yes, I know LE is expected to act above and beyond, and should be held to a higher standard. But as has been mentioned above...shouldn't we all expect everyone in every profession to be at that same standard?

So how do we look at the human affect?

What about the so-called psyc. tests that every officer must pass before being hired on? Me thinks there's a failure there.

From a lot of posts I've seen on this board, there seems to be a lot of abuse of power, lying, stealing, cheating etc., I guess I submit to the psyc. docs...how come your testing isn't catching more of this kind of behavior?


I believe there's too much politics in the job.

County Sheriff's have to be elected = Politics.

Police Chiefs have to keep their jobs = Politics

Politics have no place in a profession where people's lives are on the line.

I also don't care for news conferences where the subject is gun control or the like, and there's several top tier LE Admin. types standing behind the person speaking...and the speaker, and the media say something to the effect that top LE Officials across the country believe there should be more gun control etc.

Those so called officials should speak for themselves, and not bring their whole dept. into it, as I really don't believe anyone's whole dept. agrees with any of that.

I know all of the LE folks I hang with want to slap any Admin. that would make such a statement. There's a lot of Admin. types that are out of touch with the 'line' people.

We have the laws, they need to be enforced by the courts. Sometimes we LE's feel as if we're expendable. How many times does one read/hear about some top nasty criminal being let out, only to have to be recaptured by LE AGAIN!

Me thinks if the judges would have to be the ones to do the recapturing, there would be a lot less of that going on.

The rule makers (Supremes), Referees (Judges), and the Coaches (LE Admin.) need to get back in touch with the people, and we all need to be on the same page, instead of walking a self serving line.

 

[Tangent123123]

It doesn't matter what standard you hold someone to, be it citizen, LEO, politician, whoever. They are human beings and they are not perfect, they are subject to human nature in all it's imperfections. We all have good days and bad days, we all argue with our spouses and come to work pissed off. We all feel emotions and feel fear, anger, greed or any and all other emotions. So you can hold someone to any standard you wish, but at the end of the day you will be disappointed, because they are human. Besides, human expectations rarely seem to have a basis in reality. We set ourselves up for disappointment time and time again.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have expectations, but we should be a bit more honest about them. We expect a lot from a guy who doesnt get paid all that much to risk his life for us and desl with the dregs of society we would rather not have to.

 

[Jammer Six]

I can't speak to the amount of politics on the job; I'm not law enforcement, so I haven't seen it at close enough range to say.

What I am is a Citizen, (note the capital) who takes his responsibilities as such quite seriously.

Here in Seattle, in the wake of the Thanksgiving Shooting, Lakewood and Officer Burke vs. John T. Williams, I've given a great deal of thought to who citizens want as cops, how we get them, how we keep them, what we expect out of them when they have a weapon in their hand, and what fair standards are for judging their actions on the day after.

One of the results of my plunge into these sordid depths is that I went out and got LEM plates. Seattle Police never accept my offer of buying coffee at Starbuck's when I make it, but I finally found a way to show appreciation.

Many folks were in an uproar following Officer Burke's dismissal, but after studying the process as thoroughly as a citizen who isn't involved is allowed to, I say to you that the system functioned quite well. Men of conscience made unpleasant decisions based on the responsibilities of their office, I say that it's right Ian Burke was not charged with any crime, I say that it's right he was dismissed from the force, and I shuddered when I read the report of the shooting board. It was a scathing indictment of Officer Burke, but it also reflected the fact that Officer Burke responded to the investigation far beyond what any citizen involved in a shooting would have, and that sequence reflected very well on both Seattle Police and the design of our oversight system.

Unfortunately, set against this backdrop is Shandy Cobane. What is chilling in watching the Cobane footage is not what Cobane does. It's how he does it. There are several officers around, behind and on both sides of Cobane when he loses control of his mouth, but Cobane never looks up. He doesn't look to see who might overhear him.

There's only one explanation for that-- he knows that it doesn't matter who hears him, and that has implications that are terrifying for anyone who isn't white.

All this to say that Seattle Police has problems, but it also has safety valves and procedures in place that are specifically designed to address problems when they surface, and I am optimistic.

And finally, I wouldn't say the Supremes are rule makers-- I would say they are replay officials.

 

[SonicBlue03]

I've met some pretty darned good officers in my time, and a couple of bad apples. I stood in line with a motorcycle officer from Bellevue a couple of weeks ago while we were both getting lunch and had a great conversation. Talked about motorcycles, crappy riding weather, and all sorts of things about riding in Washington state. I wouldn't get out of bed to do what they do for what they get paid. I'm glad someone is willing to absorb that hassle, and the rotten ones I've met are far less on a percentage basis than rotten apples I've seen in any workplace I've been in. Personal experience only, of course - I'm sure some of you have had much worse (which means you should either move or quit being a putz.)

 

[Gaius]

I believe that since LEOs see the bottom "dregs" of society if you will, and are trained to deal with confrontation daily, it has the tendency to jade some people. If you let it, of course. Every bad call affects how they would approach the next just not be caught again. I know as a firefighter, I deal with this too. I'm recently changed to the profession, so I'm well aware of the changes that it has on a person, and I can imagine that being an LEO would be worse. I think it takes a special person to be able to handle that stress and keep it out of the next call, and even day-to-day life. I also know that LEOs are just people. They have a job to do, deal with high stress, and deal with death. I wish more people would have more positive contact with police but that's rarely the case. And even then, usually only in small towns.

I applaud the profession these guys take, and am VERY glad I don't have to do it.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

My father was a Deputy in Nevada, then a city Police Officer in Montana, and then a US Marshal. I spent my time in the service as a Military Policeman, and currently careerwise am still involved. It is refreshing to see a self-critical attitude presented here by wichaka, and my pride in the size of my personnel file might suprise him should he choose to glance over at my urinal. If one takes pride in doing what is right (rather than what is dictated) and point out without fear what is wrong, generally you will be treated as a troublemaker in the profession.

I have also been the victim (more than once) of police who consider all they do as righteous and sanctioned. I happliy returned their victimization in court. I have also been the grateful recipient of consideration from the few who still believe they are problem solvers FIRST over enforcers, as my father was. He took great pride in the fact that he never discharged his weapon in all his years of service (even when he would have been fully justified in doing so, and to his own peril). He was of the belief that he was hired to take a few knocks, and to excersise EXTRA restraint (BEYOND that of a citizen) toward the use of force. He considered his job to require from him that his life was of LESS value than that of a citizen (or even a suspect), given that he voluntarily accepted the daily grave responsibility of the means to take a life. This is not to say he would not protect himself as per his greater duty to his family. He preached that he never encountered a situation where a citzen or suspect did not respond to honesty and respect when he offered it to them. Some would say he was awfully lucky. He would say he survived, slept well, and had no regrets.

He also (in the later part of his career) had a great problem with the militarization/tactical aspects of civilian law enforcement. As a WWII veteran, he considered that militarization of the civilian force was entirely inappropriate, and severely damaging to the necessary favorable relationship between the citizenry and their police force. He felt that arrest and search warrants should be conducted as civilian-to-civilian, with all due respect to surrounding property and family of the subject of such warrants. He was disciplined severely on one occasion when he responded to a "barricaded subject", arriving before anyone else, and while the rest of the force was obeying orders to formulate a "tactical response", he chose to walk up to the door, knock, and spoke politely and respectfully to the subject, explaining his concern for the family and the house. Result? Subject in custody, and Dad actually testified in trial for the DEFENSE to full acquittal. Certainly not the very best approach to every situation, but Dad was fully adamant that under the same circumstances he would do the same thing again. He believed that resistance to law enforcement was very often a result of unreserved police action itself, escalation where none was necessary. His favorite summation of these scenarios was that "obviously the officer said something stupid" during a traffic stop, warrant service or other activity. Citizens, he believed had the right to say stupid, escalating and confrontational things. Police officers did not.

He would rail and vent at television shows (and news reports) showing civilian police in disguising masks or hoods while they conducted warrants and such. He would say, "If you are ashamed to show your face to people, you are doing something to be ashamed of!" This belief would come under great criticism today, where such anonymity is considered regularly appropriate. Yes, he received his share of threats to his life from arrested suspects, but never did fear for his life as a result of being recognized at a later date for conducting himself in his profession as nothing of which he should ever find reason be ashamed.

He also did not isolate himself in social circles to that of law-enforcement people. He was proud of his friendships with persons of "questionable character", who operated inside and outside of legal restraint. Granted, he tossed out any notion that he was "always on duty" and "bound to enforce and report" violations of law when off duty. Such associations with the "shady side of life" he found served him well, especially in the investigative arena of the profession. He was trusted by ALL.

A dying breed (perhaps nearly extinct) in law enforcement today. To the great detriment of our society and the honored profession.

My father was a chief of police in a small Appalachian community in the 30's and 40's. His idea about what was expected of police was exactly the same. He said a certain amount of personal risk and injury comes with the job, and that an extra amount of restraint was required. He would have agreed completely with the statement that "Citizens, he believed had the right to say stupid, escalating and confrontational things. Police officers did not." He never shot anyone, although he dealt with a very rough crowd and often broke up fights in bars. He arrested his own brother at one point in a knock-down, drag-out fight that was legendary in those parts. He didn't think much of the new tactics and attitudes either. It's probably why I have those same attitudes about LEOs now.

 

[Father of four]

For those interested I did get to go on a ride along with wichaka.

I truly believe he is one of the Good LEOs. He is a very smart and likeable guy. I'd say that LE is blessed to have him and we would surely be better off if we had more like him.

Thanks for letting me tag along wichaka!

Howard

 

[wichaka]

Thanks for the kind words Howard!

I can't change the world, but I can change the small little part of where I am.

Not much action so to speak in these small towns, but then I like quiet.

Riding with different dept.'s and population size will get a better overall view of things.

If anyone has any questions about the deadly force laws under which we operate, please let me know.

 

[Gunner3456]

Its right for the public to hold the LE world to a higher standard.

The same for the lawmakers etc., but sadly our society is eroding...in every area, which means LE too. No one is immune from it, it has permeated in every direction we turn.

Coming from my side...jobwise that is, I see many citizens doing the same things you mention that LE is doing, especially when they get caught.

So we need truth and honesty on both sides of the coin.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Can we get back to LE?

Good topic and well handled, BTW.

 

[chemist]

There will always be a need for LE as long as alcohol is being brewed and distilled.

I too had some bad experiences as a law-abiding young man with a mouth on him. A friend of mine had his arm broken for no reason. Repeat: for no reason except so that a LEO could assert his dominance over somebody who had violated no law - and wasn't even suspected of any violation.

I got over it. And I've gained a little perspective, too. Compare your worst cop story to what happens every single day in Argentina or Mexico. Sure, the militarization of our civilian police forces is unnecessary, counterproductive - and scary. But those same cops are our lifeline and our last stronghold against creeping fascism.

 

[Gunner3456]

I too had some bad experiences as a law-abiding young man with a mouth on him. A friend of mine had his arm broken for no reason. Repeat: for no reason except so that a LEO could assert his dominance over somebody who had violated no law - and wasn't even suspected of any violation. -snip-

We call that punishment for "contempt of cop."

I'll agree that some cops are fine. I've just had some experiences which cause me to not trust until proven otherwise. It's too bad.

 

[Grunwald]

..............
Here in Seattle, in the wake of the Thanksgiving Shooting, Lakewood and Officer Burke vs. John T. Williams, I've given a great deal of thought to who citizens want as cops, how we get them, how we keep them, what we expect out of them when they have a weapon in their hand, and what fair standards are for judging their actions on the day after.

One of the results of my plunge into these sordid depths is that I went out and got LEM plates. Seattle Police never accept my offer of buying coffee at Starbuck's when I make it, but I finally found a way to show appreciation.

Many folks were in an uproar following Officer Burke's dismissal, but after studying the process as thoroughly as a citizen who isn't involved is allowed to, I say to you that the system functioned quite well. Men of conscience made unpleasant decisions based on the responsibilities of their office, I say that it's right Ian Burke was not charged with any crime, I say that it's right he was dismissed from the force, and I shuddered when I read the report of the shooting board. It was a scathing indictment of Officer Burke, but it also reflected the fact that Officer Burke responded to the investigation far beyond what any citizen involved in a shooting would have, and that sequence reflected very well on both Seattle Police and the design of our oversight system.
....................

Did you see the dash-cam video of the shooting? That incident was nothing short of a cold blooded murder.

 

[Gunner3456]

I believe there's too much politics in the job.

County Sheriff's have to be elected = Politics.

Police Chiefs have to keep their jobs = Politics

Politics have no place in a profession where people's lives are on the line.

I respectfully disagree, in part. I want to vote for those in authority over me. All of our leaders are subject to politics.

"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all others." - Winston Churchill

The rule makers (Supremes), Referees (Judges), and the Coaches (LE Admin.) need to get back in touch with the people, and we all need to be on the same page, instead of walking a self serving line.

That I agree with wholly. How do you do it? Vote them out?

 

[MarkAd]

A scathing indictment of Officer Burke. One that he deserved. He deserved more then he got.