Suicide rate stats vs gun ownership levels.

[arakboss]

I realize stats can be interpreted every which way from Sunday and be all over the place in the accuracy dept. But for the sake of this discussion let's assume these stats are close to accurate. The author makes the case that states with the highest gun ownership have the highest suicide by gun rates. I would guess the antis who are trying to reduce suicides by guns would assume that lowering the amount of gun ownership would lower amount of suicides by gun. Seems plausible enough to me, but if a person only owns 3 guns vs 100 guns is that person really going to be less likely to commit suicide by gun. I wouldn't think so. Is there any stats that show a person with lots of guns is less likely to commit suicide by gun then a person with only a few guns?


Research by the Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence underlines that the tragedy of gun violence and suicides is not spread randomly across the country, but is concentrated precisely in those places where gun ownership is most prevalent and gun laws at their loosest. When the fund analysed the new CDC statistics, it discovered the highest rates of gun suicides occurred in three states which also have the greatest gun ownership – Montana (19.4 gun suicides per 100,000), Wyoming (16.6) and Alaska (16.0)
Source: Gun deaths in US rise to highest level in 20 years, data shows

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[slimmer13]

Does the manner really matter? Japan has virtually zero civilian firearm ownership and a suicide rate 60% higher than ours.

Japan's suicide rate exceeds world average: WHO report | The Japan Times

 

[arakboss]

Does the manner really matter? Japan has virtually zero civilian firearm ownership and a suicide rate 60% higher than ours.

Japan's suicide rate exceeds world average: WHO report | The Japan Times

I wouldn't think it should matter. But it matters to the antis so I am trying to find rebuttal info. At this point my rebuttal would be: Not my problem, I do not want to give up my gun rights so that less people will do themselves in with a gun vs seppuku, pills, rope, tall bridge, Max light rail, etc. The problem with that response is that is seems a little selfish. So I am working on a developing other responses.

 

[MannyGlocks]

Slimmer,

You sir are absolutely correct!

Having a gun doesn't make or correlate with a greater liklihood of suicide.

If one wants out - you most assuredly don't need a gun.

I know (or did) a gun owner who chose suicide - killed himself by other means when he 'could have' killed himself with one of his guns.

Anti-gun propaganda tells you if you're a gun owner your chance of doing away with yourself is much higher is: Bunkum

 

[arakboss]

Slimmer,

You sir are absolutely correct!

Having a gun doesn't make or correlate with a greater liklihood of suicide.

If one wants out - you most assuredly don't need a gun.

I know (or did) a gun owner who chose suicide - killed himself by other means when he 'could have' killed himself with one of his guns.

Anti-gun propaganda tells you if you're a gun owner your chance of doing away with yourself is much higher is: Bunkum

We need those stats that show that. Do you have any links?

 

[uberguy]

Legalize adult suicide and the mislabeled pseudo gun violence problem disappears overnight.

 

[Mikej]

I realize stats can be interpreted every which way from Sunday and be all over the place in the accuracy dept. But for the sake of this discussion let's assume these stats are close to accurate. The author makes the case that states with the highest gun ownership have the highest suicide by gun rates. I would guess the antis who are trying to reduce suicides by guns would assume that lowering the amount of gun ownership would lower amount of suicides by gun. Seems plausible enough to me, but if a person only owns 3 guns vs 100 guns is that person really going to be less likely to commit suicide by gun. I wouldn't think so. Is there any stats that show a person with lots of guns is less likely to commit suicide by gun then a person with only a few guns?


Research by the Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence underlines that the tragedy of gun violence and suicides is not spread randomly across the country, but is concentrated precisely in those places where gun ownership is most prevalent and gun laws at their loosest. When the fund analysed the new CDC statistics, it discovered the highest rates of gun suicides occurred in three states which also have the greatest gun ownership – Montana (19.4 gun suicides per 100,000), Wyoming (16.6) and Alaska (16.0)
Source: Gun deaths in US rise to highest level in 20 years, data shows

Does it say what times of year the suicides take place? Those three states have brutal winters. Alaska has only four or so hours of daylight in winter. Not even real nice sunshine, just light. If I were stuck somewhere like Cheyenne Wyoming, or anywhere but the Western portion of Montana, I'd be depressed. My point being, gun ownership doesn't translate in to suicide. Besides, it's a hunch, but I'm thinking people that are fond of guns and have several to quite a few guns are probably not on that suicide list. These studies wouldn't want to get into that. It would mess with the results they WANT to get from the research.

 

[DB is Here]

In Canada they use ropes, pillows & poison.

 

[uberguy]

Interesting as always, an article on gun deaths, focused on the 2/3rds (nationally) and 75% in WA. graphically displays the wall-o-assault-rifles (/sarc) - as if rifles are used in large numbers to commit suicide. NOT

Note that the higher rates are by elderly (males), also predominantly white and rural.

Antis visually map scary weapons to suicide and conflate actual criminal gun deaths with gun suicides, all in a propagandistic effort to convince the weak minded that 'we must do something' - in spite of the fact that gun control does nothing to prevent suicides, certainly not by the numbers of those who are most likely to choose that manner of death.

 

[arakboss]

Does it say what times of year the suicides take place? Those three states have brutal winters. Alaska has only four or so hours of daylight in winter. Not even real nice sunshine, just light. If I were stuck somewhere like Cheyenne Wyoming, or anywhere but the Western portion of Montana, I'd be depressed. My point being, gun ownership doesn't translate in to suicide. Besides, it's a hunch, but I'm thinking people that are fond of guns and have several to quite a few guns are probably not on that suicide list. These studies wouldn't want to get into that. It would mess with the results they WANT to get from the research.

That would be interesting to know. I am not sure how they would adjust the results for that factor but it makes since it could have an impact.

 

[MannyGlocks]

Anything, absolutely anything will be reported if it's in the anti-gun interest.

 

[RicInOR]

But so what.

Isn't suicide the ultimate in personal freedom? If you do not think an adult should be allowed to take their own life, why not?

I'd like them to do it "clean" a bit selfish to leave a mess for someone else to clean up.

Thought question - how many traffic 'accidents' are suicide attempts? pull into on coming truck / bus? hit a pole / bridge support ? Gets ruled "fell asleep at wheel" ?

 

[arakboss]

But so what.

Isn't suicide the ultimate in personal freedom? If you do not think an adult should be allowed to take their own life, why not?

I'd like them to do it "clean" a bit selfish to leave a mess for someone else to clean up.

Thought question - how many traffic 'accidents' are suicide attempts? pull into on coming truck / bus? hit a pole / bridge support ? Gets ruled "fell asleep at wheel" ?

I agree and so did many others who supported assisted suicide laws but unfortunately that view will be considered "tone deaf" among the masses these days

 

[albin25]

Wyoming. Montana, Alaska...Lonely places, independent people.
Sometimes people choose to die on their own terms, especially when health issues become a threat to their desire to be self-sufficient or not to burden others...And sometimes a "suicide" is accidental, carelessness, a mistaken "unloaded gun". Many rural/remote deaths aren't discovered for days/weeks/months and any foul play evidence is gone. Just the remains and a gun and a quick suicide declaration by an underfunded, undermanned local sheriff.

The authors were trying to make a lazy, obviously skewed point;
Imagine if their "study" had been thorough and honest:
-If every lone, un-witnessed drug overdose was counted as a suicide....
-If every un-witnessed single car fatality was counted as a suicide...
-If every un-witnessed drowning was counted as a suicide...
The results would be very, very different.

 

[arakboss]

I can't find info to dispute the authors assertions but I think I can make an argument that AR15s are safer then other firearms. According to numerous sources rifles were used in much much fewer gun murders and although I couldn't find any stats I am guessing rifles were used in way fewer suicides. So Moms Demanding Infringment should be promoting rifle ownership not restricting it

 

[arakboss]

Wyoming. Montana, Alaska...Lonely places, independent people.
Sometimes people choose to die on their own terms, especially when health issues become a threat to their desire to be self-sufficient or not to burden others...And sometimes a "suicide" is accidental, carelessness, a mistaken "unloaded gun". Many rural/remote deaths aren't discovered for days/weeks/months and any foul play evidence is gone. Just the remains and a gun and a quick suicide declaration by an underfunded, undermanned local sheriff.

The authors were trying to make a lazy, obviously skewed point;
Imagine if their "study" had been thorough and honest:
-If every lone, un-witnessed drug overdose was counted as a suicide....
-If every un-witnessed single car fatality was counted as a suicide...
-If every un-witnessed drowning was counted as a suicide...
The results would be very, very different.

I have to work with what I have. If you have studies you think are more accurate please share.

 

[arakboss]

In Canada they use ropes, pillows & poison.

View attachment 551049

This seems like a valid argument for gun restrictions not helping with suicide rate. But with Canada you have the whole weather thing again plus they are dealing with the fact that they created Justin Bieber.

 

[CLT65]

Logically it should be the tragedy of severe depression and suicide that is the issue, more so than the method. Those who are suicidal will use whatever method is most efficient and accessible, so it's completely logical that those with easier access to firearms would be more likely to use firearms. Without a firearm, they just use something else.

The antis don't think this way. It's all about emotion, and logic is irrelevant. To them, guns are far more than a tool or inanimate object. To the anti, guns have mystical properties beyond the physical, and their mere presence causes violence and death. It reminds me a little of "MacGuyver". He hated guns and refused to use them, but had no problem causing violence, death, and mayhem without them.

 

[bolus]

Study found that women who get breast cancer have watched TV. So TV must cause breast cancer? Makes for an easy article to no use real statistics to try and make a point. I'm going to say anchoring bias, confirmation bias and bandwagon bias.

I think I posted this before. my little graph of the top 20 gun owning countries vs the bottom 20 gun owning countries and suicide rate

 

[arakboss]

Study found that women who get breast cancer have watched TV. So TV must cause breast cancer? Makes for an easy article to no use real statistics to try and make a point. I'm going to say anchoring bias, confirmation bias and bandwagon bias.

I think I posted this before. my little graph of the top 20 gun owning countries vs the bottom 20 gun owning countries and suicide rate
View attachment 551064

That is the kind of stats I am looking for. Is that current do you have link to source?