Suicide rate stats vs gun ownership levels.

[Goosebrown]

Let's not forget the generally support abortion as a birth-control tool.

I support abortion for any reason. Anything that cuts down on poor people and probable future democrats.

 

[Lantraxco]

I support abortion for any reason. Anything that cuts down on poor people and probable future democrats.

Murder is murder. Better to let them be born and adopted out to well off Republicans.

 

[Goosebrown]

Murder is murder. Better to let them be born and adopted out to well off Republicans.

I'm ok with it.

It's had a tremendous positive effect on the US and every other country where it's legal.

You might want to read Freakonomics.

The crime drop off from 1993 on has a strong correlation to the 20th anniversary of Roe v Wade. Turns out unwanted children tend to grow into unwanted adults who often as not turn to crime and in turn have more unwanted children.

The 1990s represent the first increment after RvW where unwanted babies were presumably aborted. With the missing unwanted children not committing crimes everyone benefited.

There are plenty of people if a woman doesn't want to carry a child to term no one should be able to force her to any more than they should force you to worship at their church or take your guns.

 

[Lantraxco]

I'd rather euthanize the mother, following your logic. Same result, double the savings. Same evil.

 

[Pete F]

I may be wrong, but I think that the statistics of suicides and gun ownership that they are using is summarized in this story from the American Thinker and reprinted by the NRA. The takeaway from the study is that using correlation coefficients (linear regression) (as was done in the study) can lead to inaccurate results. Here is the link - https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/02/fun_with_statistics_and_the_gun_control_debate.html

You can make statistics dance to the users bias. Similar to @BSG 75 graphs.

 

[1Gr8m9d]

Suicide and gun ownership studies are politically convenient for the left. The study they are not doing is suicide rates and medications. Any of you watch TV? Almost everyone of the new medications has self harm or suicidal thoughts as a side effect. People may be using a gun, but these drug companies are paving the path.

 

[Inquisitor]

. . .
Research by the Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence underlines that the tragedy of gun violence and suicides is not spread randomly across the country, but is concentrated precisely in those places where gun ownership is most prevalent and gun laws at their loosest. When the fund analysed the new CDC statistics, it discovered the highest rates of gun suicides occurred in three states which also have the greatest gun ownership – Montana (19.4 gun suicides per 100,000), Wyoming (16.6) and Alaska (16.0)
Source: Gun deaths in US rise to highest level in 20 years, data shows

This is a prime example of faulty logic! "51% of suicides are by Guns: therefore if we reduce guns then we will reduce suicides". Guns do not and can not cause suicide. Also, the supporting data is parsed so that only suicides committed with a gun are included. This is compounded false logic that is constantly pushed by the "Gun Safety [?]" groups in every category of injury or death that includes guns.

We are constantly hearing about "Gun Violence", "Gun Deaths" and "Mass Shootings". All of these are lies, half-truths and misleading statements. They are all psychological tricks that are designed to make the average person believe that guns are the actual cause. The truth is, these are inanimate objects and cannot cause violence. Gun Deaths is the most dishonest and misleading of all of these, there are far, far too many things that can result in injury or death to even begin to list them here. In addition, there are many, many different circumstances in those injuries or deaths such as: natural, intentional, accidental, negligent, and self-inflicted. Nevertheless, all injuries or deaths where a gun was involved are grouped together, such as violent crime, suicide, accidents, and self-defense as if there is a single cause and therefore a single solution; which is a lie. In addition, this category ignores all injuries or deaths where a firearm was not used.

All of these lies, half-truths and misleading statements have an even more dangerous effect, which is, they distract from even trying to identify the real causes of injuries or deaths, and as a result, real solutions can never be identified. The basic causes of violence are lack of morals and/or certain mental illnesses; suicides are the result of depression and/or despair; accidents result from carelessness and/or lack of knowledge. Work on these rather than the diversion of "Gun Safety" (formerly Gun Control).

The only organizations that are truly addressing "Gun Safety" are the military, law enforcement, and the NRA; with only the NRA addressing safety training for the public! The Democrats and "Gun Safety[?]" groups only want all firearms to be restricted and eventually banned, except for law enforcement and government agents; but why?

 

[Goosebrown]

"Guns do not and can not cause suicides"
Absolutely true. Education at point of sale is good in that we don't want anyone to sell a suicide weapon of any sort to someone having a break at that moment. However that isn't going to stop most suicides.

 

[Mikej]

This is a prime example of faulty logic! "51% of suicides are by Guns: therefore if we reduce guns then we will reduce suicides". Guns do not and can not cause suicide. Also, the supporting data is parsed so that only suicides committed with a gun are included. This is compounded false logic that is constantly pushed by the "Gun Safety [?]" groups in every category of injury or death that includes guns.

We are constantly hearing about "Gun Violence", "Gun Deaths" and "Mass Shootings". All of these are lies, half-truths and misleading statements. They are all psychological tricks that are designed to make the average person believe that guns are the actual cause. The truth is, these are inanimate objects and cannot cause violence. Gun Deaths is the most dishonest and misleading of all of these, there are far, far too many things that can result in injury or death to even begin to list them here. In addition, there are many, many different circumstances in those injuries or deaths such as: natural, intentional, accidental, negligent, and self-inflicted. Nevertheless, all injuries or deaths where a gun was involved are grouped together, such as violent crime, suicide, accidents, and self-defense as if there is a single cause and therefore a single solution; which is a lie. In addition, this category ignores all injuries or deaths where a firearm was not used.

All of these lies, half-truths and misleading statements have an even more dangerous effect, which is, they distract from even trying to identify the real causes of injuries or deaths, and as a result, real solutions can never be identified. The basic causes of violence are lack of morals and/or certain mental illnesses; suicides are the result of depression and/or despair; accidents result from carelessness and/or lack of knowledge. Work on these rather than the diversion of "Gun Safety" (formerly Gun Control).

The only organizations that are truly addressing "Gun Safety" are the military, law enforcement, and the NRA; with only the NRA addressing safety training for the public! The Democrats and "Gun Safety[?]" groups only want all firearms to be restricted and eventually banned, except for law enforcement and government agents; but why?

This is so beautifully written, and spot on. Do you ever consider trying to get that in print on an editorial page of ANY newspaper? I'm mean, you're preaching to the choir here?

 

[Inquisitor]

This is so beautifully written, and spot on. Do you ever consider trying to get that in print on an editorial page of ANY newspaper? I'm mean, you're preaching to the choir here?

Yes I have, but unsuccessfully. However, anyone can use anything I post without any reservation. I encourage everyone to spread the word! Unfortunately, I believe the bias on the other side prevents them from hearing, accepting and acting on anything that does not agree or support their preconceived beliefs.

 

[Mikej]

Yes I have, but unsuccessfully. However, anyone can use anything I post without any reservation. I encourage everyone to spread the word! Unfortunately, I believe the bias on the other side prevents them from hearing, accepting and acting on anything that does not agree or support their preconceived beliefs.

Seems to me you need to keep trying. I don't feel I could send that to a news paper because it's not mine. Using the above in rebuttal to editorials stating the lies you call out might have a better chance of being printed.

 

[arakboss]

That's not a bad idea at all. I'd be behind thst

It looks like I am going to get a face to face meeting with Rep. Neron in mid March. to go over my suicide prevention bill/amendment idea. Since I missed the Jan18th deadline for new bills I am thinking about asking her to offer it up as an amendment to another bill. What good firearm related bills are out there?
I am thinking HB2705 would be a good fit for my idea to be added as an amendment?
HB2705 2019 Regular Session - Oregon Legislative Information System

The alternative would be to wait until next year to offer it up as a bill, but it's a short session and it likely wouldn't go anywhere.

 

[Inquisitor]

How would you all feel about a Bill that would require the State to provide optional training materials on how to recognize potentially suicidal customers to FFLs who requested them? I am looking for something our side can offer besides a bunch of no's, that will help polish our image a little bit. This Bill could be combined with some language that gave FFLs more cover in case they for example turned away some distraught trans person because they thought he/she was potentially suicidal. But then the trans person files civil rights complaint/lawsuit against the FFL. If the FFL had some additional legal cover protecting them it might help their case. My understanding is they can make this determination now and refuse a sale but this would provide additional info they could use to make those decisions.

It appears as though this training material already exist and is available from the NSSF: Suicide Prevention Program for Retailers and Ranges • NSSF

The State could play a role in letting FFLs know this material is available and delivering it to those FFLs who request it. It would really help if the State could give FFLs some level of exemption from ORS 659A.403 (discrimination law) when a customer is suspected of being suicidal. Maybe they'll already will be exempt but I would like to see it spelled out in the law.

You just pushed another of my buttons!

Democrats and "Gun Safety[?]" groups are trying to add additional mental health criteria for denial of the right to possess a firearm or ammunition.

a. There is already a prohibition in federal law that includes the following in classes of people ineligible to possess, receive, ship, or transport firearms or ammunition: "… Those adjudicated as mental defectives or incompetents or those committed to any mental institution."

b. The Democrats and "Gun Safety[?]" groups want to expand this restriction such that any "health professional" or relative would be able to file a report directly to the NICS without any legal review or recourse.

c. The mental health criteria where a person is identified as a threat to themselves or others is not defined and the Democratic proposal eliminates any requirement for this "report" to be subject to any due process and recourse of law before it is included in the NCIS database. Once the "report" is included in the NCIS database it will be difficult if not almost impossible to challenge it and have it removed without a lawyer.

Now you want to give FFLs legal protection if they make this determination and they are wrong?
I strongly disagree!

BTW - Why do we have to "polish our image"?

 

[arakboss]

You just pushed another of my buttons!

Democrats and "Gun Safety[?]" groups are trying to add additional mental health criteria for denial of the right to possess a firearm or ammunition.

a. There is already a prohibition in federal law that includes the following in classes of people ineligible to possess, receive, ship, or transport firearms or ammunition: "… Those adjudicated as mental defectives or incompetents or those committed to any mental institution."

b. The Democrats and "Gun Safety[?]" groups want to expand this restriction such that any "health professional" or relative would be able to file a report directly to the NICS without any legal review or recourse.

c. The mental health criteria where a person is identified as a threat to themselves or others is not defined and the Democratic proposal eliminates any requirement for this "report" to be subject to any due process and recourse of law before it is included in the NCIS database. Once the "report" is included in the NCIS database it will be difficult if not almost impossible to challenge it and have it removed without a lawyer.

Now you want to give FFLs legal protection if they make this determination and they are wrong?
I strongly disagree!

The FFL would not be entering any info in to the nics system. My understanding is an FFL can refuse the sale of a firearm to a customer for many reasons. I don't believe they are required to enter info in to nics system when they do so.

The legal protection i am seeking is regarding oregon discrimination law for retailers and other places of public accomodation. Let's say a black guy walks in to the lgs and the shop suspects the guy may be suicidal so they refuse to sell him a firearm. Without any legal protection the guy could file a BOLI claim and argue that they refused to sell him the firearm because he was black.

 

[Inquisitor]

The FFL would not be entering any info in to the nics system. My understanding is an FFL can refuse the sale of a firearm to a customer for many reasons. I don't believe they are required to enter info in to nics system when they do so.

The legal protection i am seeking is regarding oregon discrimination law for retailers and other places of public accomodation. Let's say a black guy walks in to the lgs and the shop suspects the guy may be suicidal so they refuse to sell him a firearm. Without any legal protection the guy could file a BOLI claim and argue that they refused to sell him the firearm because he was black.

I still strongly disagree. If an FFL can refuse a sale for many reasons, then he or she accepts the consequences of that action. What other of the "many reasons" do you (or anybody else, since you want to set a precedent) want to "provide legal protection"?

 

[Deathgrip]

"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

 

[RailwayMan]

Legalize adult suicide and the mislabeled pseudo gun violence problem disappears overnight.

Suicide is legal in Oregon .... grasp that one ....

 

[uberguy]

Suicide is legal in Oregon .... grasp that one ....

Well, that's not quite true.

DEATH WITH DIGNITY—OREGON'S ASSISTED SUICIDE LAW. The Death with Dignity Act (ORS 127.800 to 127.897) allows terminally ill Oregon residents to obtain and use prescriptions from their physicians for self-administered, lethal medications. Under the Act, ending one's life in accordance with the law does not constitute suicide.

Medically assisted death is permissible, only for the terminally ill when authorized by a doctor.
Seems lots of people have reasons other than being terminally ill.

 

[RailwayMan]

Well, that's not quite true.

DEATH WITH DIGNITY—OREGON'S ASSISTED SUICIDE LAW. The Death with Dignity Act (ORS 127.800 to 127.897) allows terminally ill Oregon residents to obtain and use prescriptions from their physicians for self-administered, lethal medications. Under the Act, ending one's life in accordance with the law does not constitute suicide.

Medically assisted death is permissible, only for the terminally ill when authorized by a doctor.
Seems lots of people have reasons other than being terminally ill.

Some terminally people who are turned down just drink some Nyquil and take a dozen pain pills and go to sleep forever.
The don't need some doctor's approval to die.
Who the hell are they anyway to be approving when someone dies or not ..... the person knows their own limits.

 

[Member 52301]

Suicide and gun ownership studies are politically convenient for the left. The study they are not doing is suicide rates and medications. Any of you watch TV? Almost everyone of the new medications has self harm or suicidal thoughts as a side effect. People may be using a gun, but these drug companies are paving the path.

^^^

This!

Thank you.

~~~

Big Pharma aka Legal Rx Drugs do as much damage in specific medical cases as illegal drugs do in my opinion. And SOME of the Rx drugs are for various physical issues to begin with not just 'mental issues'.

Many of the young adults, including much younger people - kids, older adults, etc. who commit suicide, suicide/murder combinations and 'mass murders' have been royally screwed up with Rx legal drugs.

The parents, mentors, and others can't control the punks/brats and spoiled or unspoiled children/teens so they put them on drugs at an early age. This leads to more drugs in their teenage years and when they reach adulthood - LOOK OUT!

Now with some of these psycho babble drugs... they say that you shouldn't stop taking them or you should wean off of them 'under your doctor's care' because if you stop them suddenly... you will go off the rails or more crazy in your actions, words and/or thoughts.

I have known people who are now dead (NOT in my family - dead or alive!) who took Rx drugs to stop smoking, for other medical issues, some for pain and some for 'coping issues' aka depression or some other IN VOGUE popular mental illness name.

The one who took it for coping issues (Mental.) went through a divorce a zillion years ago and is still alive. She is more MESSED UP mentally now since she was taking these Rx meds and some other med for a short term MINOR physical issue than she was in her entire life. I told her this POINT BLANK. Many of the so called 'experts' are more messed up mentally than their patients. Some of them are glorified social workers.

Most of the time, a person needs a person to talk to, a good friend, a spiritual leader, etc. and they need to be told AFTER A TIME FRAME... to SNAP OUT OF IT, take some good/sane advice, help another person in need, get busy, work, exercise, get outdoors, etc. instead of just POPPING A PILL or pills instead of dealing with their problems head on - pull yourself up by the boot straps.

Some of the ones who thought that their doctors were 'gods' never went for another opinion and always believed that the almighty medicine would be their life saver. Some of those people were highly educated men and women and the cream of the crop in their field yet the medical experts kept flipping them around with their meds (Changing the meds back and forth AND introducing new ones!) or they were on them for a long, long time since they always needed the 'psycho babble pill' as a crutch. Pills to sleep, pills to function, pills to wake up, pills to calm down and in many cases the parents/teachers believed that a curious or active child needs some PILL to calm him down or focus.

Gee, I wonder how all of us older folks filled with common sense and brains managed to get out of bed, shower, go to work, come home, work some more, volunteer, do x, y and z without needing those pills?! Maybe we did not fall for all of the boob tube ads, other bs and... well... never mind.

Those Rx drugs and illegal drugs hurt and kill more people than guns do.

Furthermore, if a person REALLY wants to commit suicide - they will find a way to do it and that has already been mentioned here.

I figure, NO offense to any person reading this, if they choose to do this - let them do it. Hopefully, they will not commit suicide and murder another person before they do themselves in. I believe that our Creator/God gave us free will. Do I think that some things are wrong or a sin? Yes, but you can't always convince a sane or insane person to do what YOU think is right or shove your ideas or morals down their throat.

I think that REPEATED REHAB including catch and release deals (Mental, drug addiction and/or alcohol addiction.) on the TAXPAYER DIME ($$$$$ not $!) is a WASTE of taxpayer money because many of these people do NOT want to get better or strive for a better life.

I sincerely believe this, have said it for years on end and have seen this in volunteer work that the 'patients' KNOW HOW TO RIG THE SYSTEM. They HURT the funds for the people who really need help one time or to learn how to DEAL with their personal issues in a sane and common sense manner.

And yes, some of these SERIOUSLY mentally ill people, life long crazy drunks and life long crazy dope addicts may need to be in an Asylum and NOT roaming the streets ready to hurt themselves but much worse HURT or murder another person or people.

I used to say (Still say and it would be much cheaper and safer for society in general.) that they should make a Special Place for the life long drunks and dope fiends to go to so if they want to do all of those terrible things to themselves... let them do it in a specific place NOT while they roam the streets, drive your car, pilot your plane, drive your train, steer your ship, etc. They want to screw up their lives over and over again? Let them do it but do not make me PAY FOR IT or live among them like you see on some city streets. These people get a SLAP ON THE HAND and that is a fact when they attack normal, hardworking, taxpaying citizens and their families. And it IS getting much WORSE dealing with these bums in some cities, states and even in small towns - fly over country.

Catch and release is a bad idea especially if it is the same old, same old REPEATED REHAB on the taxpayer dime. The city and county jails are overloaded and many of them are not even held in jail even if they commit specific crimes. It is on our local and national news and NOT just in big cities - smaller cities and small towns are dealing with all of these issues.

Cate