Suicide rate stats vs gun ownership levels.

[Stomper]

You want an argument that works with anti's using the "we gotta go something about suscide by gun"?

Goes something like this...

So you want to restrict gun ownership to prevent suicide by gun, but you're OK with herding someone down the cattle chute to State sanctioned assisted suicide?


It's about "persuasion", big bold statements are what (generally) persuade people. You "pace" the individual from where they're at, in this case you acknowledge that they want "to do something" via big government (and most likely embrace big government), then you "lead" that individual using their own "trajectory" and make a bold statement about their beliefs (being driven down a cattle chute is a pretty vivid mental picture) in the form of a question thereby making them defend their position.... to themselves.

The only hope you have of persuading someone is "nudging" them out of the "movie" inside their head long enough that THEY change their own mind. You have to use "irrational" analogies to jog someone from being irrational, facts don't generally matter to human "passions".

If you disagree with what I've said, then you're a racist, homophobic, sexist, who enjoys drowning puppies & kittens, while wearing a taylored skin suit made from your murder victims.















See what I did there?

 

[Mikej]

PS; anybody else draw the conclusion that the three states they listed also have some of the harshest winters in the US?

Yes, in post #7. Seems like no-brainer deduction when reading the stat. But then again, the people that have no clue of ANYTHING out of their own little realm..... Thinking of huge population centers, Portland, Seattle, New York etc. The densely populated areas that out vote rural areas, and don't have a clue of life out of the city.

 

[clearconscience]

How many of the gun suicides in the US are from Veterans who are being failed by our Govt and health care systems?

I know two people who lost children to suicide in the last year.
Neither have firearms in the family, and have never touched a firearm.
The last one went to Kaiser for mental health help. The soonest appt he could get was a month out. He killed himself 2 weeks later.

And our healthcare system won't look at the real causes.
Vets get linked to PTSD, financial or relationships, but how many of those have suffered from undiagnosed or what was thought unrelated TBI.

They really need to start screening all depression/suicidal people for TBI.

Firearms have nothing to do with mental illness, any more than a rope does.

 

[arakboss]

How many of the gun suicides in the US are from Veterans who are being failed by our Govt and health care systems?

I know two people who lost children to suicide in the last year.
Neither have firearms in the family, and have never touched a firearm.
The last one went to Kaiser for mental health help. The soonest appt he could get was a month out. He killed himself 2 weeks later.

And our healthcare system won't look at the real causes.
Vets get linked to PTSD, financial or relationships, but how many of those have suffered from undiagnosed or what was thought unrelated TBI.

They really need to start screening all depression/suicidal people for TBI.

Firearms have nothing to do with mental illness, any more than a rope does.

I agree our veteran's deserve better care. I think the relation to firearms and suicide is that it is easier to do with a firearm and you are more likely to be successful at it with a firearm. Using a rope would take a little more planning and work. Some feel that the more work involved in the attempt the less likely some are going to go through with it and/or be successful at it.

 

[Goosebrown]

@Stomper. I agree totally. Why is assisted suicide ok and non-assisted suicide not?

Suicide is all sorts of complex. It's touched is all. For most of us it doesn't make sense and we see those left behind and want to stop it because they hurt but the person that ended their life was hurting too. I have to believe that ending your life is your right.

What I will say is that suicide is NOT gun violence. We should address it so that people can get help if they want it.

 

[Tangent123123]

You are using logic to debate with a group of people who base their argument on emotion and feelings. It doesn't matter what numbers you use to make your point, they won't care.

 

[Goosebrown]

You are using logic to debate with a group of people who based their argument on emotion and feelings. It doesn't matter what numbers you use to your point, they won't care.

Precisely why we need trump to stuff the court with right leaning judges now. THAT is where the next battle is going to be fought. We will never win against anit-gunner sheeple. No argument will sway them. Ever. Never has. In any society. At any time in history.

 

[arakboss]

Precisely why we need trump to stuff the court with right leaning judges now. THAT is where the next battle is going to be fought. We will never win against liberal sheeple. No argument will sway them. Ever. Never has. In any society. At any time in history.

So why are we writing politicians, newspapers, having rallies, etc?

 

[billdeserthills]

But so what.

Isn't suicide the ultimate in personal freedom? If you do not think an adult should be allowed to take their own life, why not?

I'd like them to do it "clean" a bit selfish to leave a mess for someone else to clean up.

Thought question - how many traffic 'accidents' are suicide attempts? pull into on coming truck / bus? hit a pole / bridge support ? Gets ruled "fell asleep at wheel" ?

I agree, be a pal & lay down a tarp

 

[Goosebrown]

So why are we writing politicians, newspapers, having rallies, etc?

I'm not and don't really understand why anyone does. I know you want it to help and to believe that enough people telling them they're not going to succeed, TELLING THEM THE TRUTH,... but it won't.

We're in a tribal power struggle. Were one tribe the people in Portland and Seattle are the other.

There is no amount or quality of information you can provide that will change minds.

There just isn't.

Want to save the 2nd amendment? Send justice Ginsberg skydiveing lessons. Or spielunking gift certificates. Get her to try exotic fugu sushi or to collect mushrooms. Guest spot on jackbubblegum.

The electoral process is about numbers and numbers alone. Not right and wrong.

The judicial process is about the law and we can hold on there.

Before some mall ninja says I'm anti gun. Again.

Don't start.

I'm as much for guns as anyone here and in general I keep my mouth shut when people go off on their "shall not be infringed" kicks. It makes them feel good and in principle they're right but that is just not how government works.

We have to game the system to win. We'll never have the legislative branch in Oregon and probably not the governorship either.

I'll never tell anyone not to do what you're doing but it isn't going to do a thing.

Get new people shooting. That changes numbers. Numbers work. Facts won't.

 

[arakboss]

I'm not and don't really understand why anyone does. I know you want it to help and to believe that enough people telling them they're not going to succeed, TELLING THEM THE TRUTH,... but it won't.

We're in a tribal power struggle. Were one tribe the people in Portland and Seattle are the other.

There is no amount or quality of information you can provide that will change minds.

There just isn't.

Want to save the 2nd amendment? Send justice Ginsberg skydiveing lessons. Or spielunking gift certificates. Get her to try exotic fugu sushi or to collect mushrooms. Guest spot on jackbubblegum.

The electoral process is about numbers and numbers alone. Not right and wrong.

The judicial process is about the law and we can hold on there.

Before some mall ninja says I'm anti gun. Again.

Don't start.

I'm as much for guns as anyone here and in general I keep my mouth shut when people go off on their "shall not be infringed" kicks. It makes them feel good and in principle they're right but that is just not how government works.

We have to game the system to win. We'll never have the legislative branch in Oregon and probably not the governorship either.

I'll never tell anyone not to do what you're doing but it isn't going to do a thing.

Get new people shooting. That changes numbers. Numbers work. Facts won't.

I appreciate your honesty but man that is depressing.

 

[arakboss]

I'm not and don't really understand why anyone does. I know you want it to help and to believe that enough people telling them they're not going to succeed, TELLING THEM THE TRUTH,... but it won't.

We're in a tribal power struggle. Were one tribe the people in Portland and Seattle are the other.

There is no amount or quality of information you can provide that will change minds.

There just isn't.

Want to save the 2nd amendment? Send justice Ginsberg skydiveing lessons. Or spielunking gift certificates. Get her to try exotic fugu sushi or to collect mushrooms. Guest spot on jackbubblegum.

The electoral process is about numbers and numbers alone. Not right and wrong.

The judicial process is about the law and we can hold on there.

Before some mall ninja says I'm anti gun. Again.

Don't start.

I'm as much for guns as anyone here and in general I keep my mouth shut when people go off on their "shall not be infringed" kicks. It makes them feel good and in principle they're right but that is just not how government works.

We have to game the system to win. We'll never have the legislative branch in Oregon and probably not the governorship either.

I'll never tell anyone not to do what you're doing but it isn't going to do a thing.

Get new people shooting. That changes numbers. Numbers work. Facts won't.

It seems as though the power structure in Salem is unmovable and will never change. That is likely why we have the "we will not comply" movements springing up everywhere. It is easier to just say "we will not comply" rather then work to prevent the laws the other side wants us to comply with. "Not complying will be a suitable solution for many who want to excercise their rights in private, hiding their noncompliance from the world around them. For the brave few who choose to flaunt their noncompliance it may or may not work out so well.

I don't believe Salem is a lost cause quite yet. I see opportunities for small gains that could slow the tide of anti-2a legislation coming out of Salem. But it will take hard work and resources to make these gains. There was an idea at one time that a small percentage of customers (2%) could change a corporations path. In a sense we are the customer's of the Legislature in Salem, they work for us. I believe this idea could apply to the Legislature as it did to corporations. 2% seems like a small number but with over 4 million residents, 2% is around 80k residents. Imagine if even 1% (40k residents) sent letters, show up at rallies, etc. Legislators would take notice. The problem isn't the numbers it's getting the numbers to do the work and expend the resources necessary to focus on the task at hand.

I still believe we are outnumbered in this State. But that could be overcome with effort and dedication that exceeds our opponents.

I would be happy to be labeled as part of this 1%.


Change happens:

 

[Goosebrown]

I appreciate your honesty but man that is depressing.

Of course it is.

It's gut wrenching but it's the way it is.

Working to support our rights is honorable and as I say, I generally keep out if these threads, at least with opinion but I do try to add facts...

Vote republican because you're going to get better judges. It isn't about fair or good or any high purpose, democrats are never going to get judges that support the 2nd.

Get people shooting to change the numbers.

Those are the only two things that will help

 

[arakboss]

But so what.

Isn't suicide the ultimate in personal freedom? If you do not think an adult should be allowed to take their own life, why not?

I'd like them to do it "clean" a bit selfish to leave a mess for someone else to clean up.

Thought question - how many traffic 'accidents' are suicide attempts? pull into on coming truck / bus? hit a pole / bridge support ? Gets ruled "fell asleep at wheel" ?

I belong to the "pro-choice" movement. I believe you have a right to decide when you want to stay or go. Personally, I plan on sticking life out but that's just me.

 

[arakboss]

How would you all feel about a Bill that would require the State to provide optional training materials on how to recognize potentially suicidal customers to FFLs who requested them? I am looking for something our side can offer besides a bunch of no's, that will help polish our image a little bit. This Bill could be combined with some language that gave FFLs more cover in case they for example turned away some distraught trans person because they thought he/she was potentially suicidal. But then the trans person files civil rights complaint/lawsuit against the FFL. If the FFL had some additional legal cover protecting them it might help their case. My understanding is they can make this determination now and refuse a sale but this would provide additional info they could use to make those decisions.

It appears as though this training material already exist and is available from the NSSF: Suicide Prevention Program for Retailers and Ranges • NSSF

The State could play a role in letting FFLs know this material is available and delivering it to those FFLs who request it. It would really help if the State could give FFLs some level of exemption from ORS 659A.403 (discrimination law) when a customer is suspected of being suicidal. Maybe they'll already will be exempt but I would like to see it spelled out in the law.

 

[Goosebrown]

How would you all feel about a Bill that would require the State to provide optional training materials on how to recognize potentially suicidal customers to FFLs who requested them? I am looking for something our side can offer besides a bunch of no's, that will help polish our image a little bit. This Bill could be combined with some language that gave FFLs more cover in case they for example turned away some distraught trans person because they thought he/she was potentially suicidal. But then the trans person files civil rights complaint/lawsuit against the FFL. If the FFL had some additional legal cover protecting them it might help their case. My understanding is they can make this determination now and refuse a sale but this would provide additional info they could use to make those decisions.

That's not a bad idea at all. I'd be behind thst

 

[RailwayMan]

Does the manner really matter? Japan has virtually zero civilian firearm ownership and a suicide rate 60% higher than ours.

Japan's suicide rate exceeds world average: WHO report | The Japan Times

It's all about cultural differences and beliefs in the end.

 

[Al Swann]

I realize stats can be interpreted every which way from Sunday and be all over the place in the accuracy dept. But for the sake of this discussion let's assume these stats are close to accurate. The author makes the case that states with the highest gun ownership have the highest suicide by gun rates. I would guess the antis who are trying to reduce suicides by guns would assume that lowering the amount of gun ownership would lower amount of suicides by gun. Seems plausible enough to me, but if a person only owns 3 guns vs 100 guns is that person really going to be less likely to commit suicide by gun. I wouldn't think so. Is there any stats that show a person with lots of guns is less likely to commit suicide by gun then a person with only a few guns?


Research by the Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence underlines that the tragedy of gun violence and suicides is not spread randomly across the country, but is concentrated precisely in those places where gun ownership is most prevalent and gun laws at their loosest. When the fund analysed the new CDC statistics, it discovered the highest rates of gun suicides occurred in three states which also have the greatest gun ownership – Montana (19.4 gun suicides per 100,000), Wyoming (16.6) and Alaska (16.0)
Source: Gun deaths in US rise to highest level in 20 years, data shows

I guarantee you most of the anti-2A crowd citing firearm use in suicides supports not only physician assisted suicide but forcing health care providers to participate. Hypocrites.

 

[RailwayMan]

I guarantee you most of the anti-2A crowd citing firearm use in suicides supports not only physician assisted suicide but forcing health care providers to participate. Hypocrites.

Let's not forget the generally support abortion as a birth-control tool.

 

[Lantraxco]

How about we suggest taking half the money spent on abortion and "women's reproductive rights" every year and redirect it to mental health care and suicide intervention?