Suggested Shotgun Shells for Home Defense?

[DeanMk]

My daughter shot one of our recent toys at a 55 gallon steel burn barrel last night testing the Steiner light. She used #6 high base 2 3/4 inch Remington shells, not Magnum. She was 20 feet(?). It penetrated both sides and caved the side of the barrel in with a cylinder choke.View attachment 455756 It didn't knock the barrel over and wasn't a fresh barrel but was very effective. Wherever the light went the shot followed and was very effective. I was curious about the energy of the round, it looks like well over 2000 Ft lbs. A heavy buckshot load exceeds 3000 ft lbs. the author of one of the articles I read illustrated it like this, 9 pellet 00 buck is about 32 caliber, if only one pellet strikes it exerts over 300 ft lbs of energy more than most 32 caliber handgun rounds. I remember one year 5 or so decades ago I was by myself hunting grouse mid December with my 12 gauge. I spied a tree that would mage a great Christmas tree for the folks but all I had was a hunting knife. It took 3 shots from the 12 ga to sever the 3-4 inch solid trunk from a foot or so.

The Remington high brass "Duck & Phesant" 12 ga. load pushes 1 1/4 oz. (aka 547 gr.) of #6's with a MV of 1330 f/s.
The energy of the combined load would be 2149 ft./lbs.
The Remington Express Magnum Buckshot 2 3/4" 12 ga. pushes 9 single ought Buckshot pellets with a MV of 1290 f/s.
According to this Wikipedia article, a single pellet of single ought buck is .32 cal and weighs 49 grains.
The combined weight of 9 such pellets would then be 441 grains.
Moving at 1290 f/s, the resulting energy would only be 1630 ft.lbs.
When you combine that with the fact that you've got 9 single ought pellets hitting the target compared to 281 #6's hitting said target, it seems like the birdshot may actually be the more effective man stopper.


Elvis

 

[Geardo]

The Remington high brass "Duck & Phesant" 12 ga. load pushes 1 1/4 oz. (aka 547 gr.) of #6's with a MV of 1330 f/s.
The energy of the combined load would be 2149 ft./lbs.
The Remington Express Magnum Buckshot 2 3/4" 12 ga. pushes 9 single ought Buckshot pellets with a MV of 1290 f/s.
According to this Wikipedia article, a single pellet of single ought buck is .32 cal and weighs 49 grains.
The combined weight of 9 such pellets would then be 441 grains.
Moving at 1290 f/s, the resulting energy would only be 1630 ft.lbs.
When you combine that with the fact that you've got 9 single ought pellets hitting the target compared to 281 #6's hitting said target, it seems like the birdshot may actually be the more effective man stopper.


Elvis

Everything I have seen, shows that even though they have a lot of energy, they don't have enough penetration.

 

[mkwerx]

It sounds like you mistook a pop can for a steel barrel..

Holyscheit Certaindeaf posted a vidya link. Didn't click it though.




















Not really, I watched Paul's video shortly after it came out good, practical info there.

 

[Cerberus Group]

At home defense distances, there's more than enough penetration...generally we find the wad as well among the carnage.

 

[Geardo]

At home defense distances, there's more than enough penetration...generally we find the wad as well among the carnage.

At close range, I believe you. At 30' I am not taking my chances with it.

Bird Shot for Self Defense and Some Stopping Power Statistics

 

[KKG]

I do believe that if anyone fires a Gun at another person, the Court will presume that person intended to take a life. That's the way Courts view Shootings. What type of projectile used is seldom considered.

 

[Geardo]

I don't even know why we are having this discussion when you can pick up a decent Ar15 for $450 bucks and load it up with 55 gr Hornsady Vmax .

If y'all are so worried about missing the perp over and over and and blasting through all the walls in your house, maybe 30 rds on tap would be better that 5 or 6!

 

[Argonaut]

There is a reason shotguns have been used by the military on point with patrols since the Spanish American war. They are effective. They are a short range weapon, the same as a pistol but more effective. My son used them in close combat in Iran 10 years ago. Personal self defense by its definition is close. They were used in the jungles of Viet Nam to the trenches of WW1 France with great success and except for limited range, no one felt under gunned. Most police cruisers still carry them and when a cop is going into a gunfight, given the chance, they will reach for the shotgun. Inexperienced cowboy types that watch to much TV pick up there handguns, the real police and military reach for a shotgun in close quarter combat.

 

[Stomper]

I don't even know why we are having this discussion when you can pick up a decent Ar15 for $450 bucks and load it up with 55 gr Hornsady Vmax .

If y'all are so worried about missing the perp over and over and and blasting through all the walls in your house, maybe 30 rds on tap would be better that 5 or 6!

For the same reason some of us are merely only reading this thread.... boredom.

 

[Geardo]

There is a reason shotguns have been used by the military on point with patrols since the Spanish American war. They are effective. They are a short range weapon, the same as a pistol but more effective. My son used them in close combat in Iran 10 years ago. Personal self defense by its definition is close. They were used in the jungles of Viet Nam to the trenches of WW1 France with great success and except for limited range, no one felt under gunned. Most police cruisers still carry them and when a cop is going into a gunfight, given the chance, they will reach for the shotgun.

Yep, and alllll those guns are loaded with 00 buck or slugs for a reason!

 

[Argonaut]

Yep, and alllll those guns are loaded with 00 buck or slugs for a reason!

I spent 13 years training for and participating in combat is the military. never saw a slug in a military setting, lots of 00 buck and smaller.

 

[Geardo]

I spent 13 years training for and participating in combat is the military. never saw a slug in a military setting, lots of 00 buck and smaller.

I am nearly positive LEOS use slugs in some applications. At the very least, fish and game do for obvious reasons.

What was the smallest size you saw used in the military?

 

[Stomper]

My Army units only rocked 2-3/4" OOB when we carried shotguns.

 

[Argonaut]

I am nearly positive LEOS use slugs in some applications. At the very least, fish and game do for obvious reasons.

What was the smallest size you saw used in the military?

Lots of 00 but there was 4/0 and we used #6 training (we even experimented with fletchette loads in shotguns) folks to follow moving targets. Gunnery schools had twin 12 gauge semi autos in a brace as training guns. Home defense (and the military) isn't about killing people in any event. Disabling an opponent is the ultimate goal, if you disable a soldier it takes 2 more off the battle field to assist him, a much more productive result than just killing him outright. Killing someone after the threat has been mitigated is called murder in any jurisdiction I know of reguardless of who does it.

 

[MrMillspecer]

Alaskan State troopers carry slugs. For the larger threats.

 

[mkwerx]

Alaskan State troopers carry slugs. For the larger threats.

Meth zombies and moose. AST also carry .45s for sidearms, IIRC. At one point they had custom dark blue framed Glocks.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Lots of 00 but there was 4/0 and we used #6 training (we even experimented with fletchette loads in shotguns) folks to follow moving targets. Gunnery schools had twin 12 gauge semi autos in a brace as training guns. Home defense (and the military) isn't about killing people in any event. Disabling an opponent is the ultimate goal, if you disable a soldier it takes 2 more off the battle field to assist him, a much more productive result than just killing him outright. Killing someone after the threat has been mitigated is called murder in any jurisdiction I know of reguardless of who does it.

This is why we dropped punji sticks on Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

 

[Argonaut]

Alaskan State troopers carry slugs. For the larger threats.

Yep.......like 1300 lb bears.........I met a CHP one time in the Eureka CA area that carried both an M16 and a 870 riot gun on his dash......he said the druggies sometimes attacked LE from a longer range and they needed the AR but 90% of the time he used the 870. That is the beauty of a 12 gauge shotgun. They are so versitle. We shoot flairs out of them off shore.

 

[Geardo]

Lots of 00 but there was 4/0 and we used #6 training (we even experimented with fletchette loads in shotguns) folks to follow moving targets. Gunnery schools had twin 12 gauge semi autos in a brace as training guns. Home defense (and the military) isn't about killing people in any event. Disabling an opponent is the ultimate goal, if you disable a soldier it takes 2 more off the battle field to assist him, a much more productive result than just killing him outright. Killing someone after the threat has been mitigated is called murder in any jurisdiction I know of reguardless of who does it.

Its about stopping the threat no matter what as fast as possible. If I could realistically use a semi auto 50 bmg I would.

 

[Cerberus Group]

At close range, I believe you. At 30' I am not taking my chances with it.

Bird Shot for Self Defense and Some Stopping Power Statistics

Not sure why you posted the above article, as bird shot or #12 is nowhere effective as #4 Buck...don't think it's mentioned as being a viable option in this thread.

I've got info with 2 shootings with #4 Buck, 2 with #4 Bird, 3 with #6 Bird and 2 with #12...and numerous with 00 Buck, those being LE stats.

#4 Buck, because of the spread, internally took out everything south of the chin. Distances were approx. 17 and 27 feet.

#4 Bird. Not as effective, but still put both on the stainless steel table. The internals did not show nearly the trauma the Buck did. Distances were approx. 20 and 25 feet.

#6 Bird. Again not as effective as the first two, but with one distance at approx. 12 feet, nothing more was needed. The other two distances were approx 15 and 25 feet.

#12 Bird were both almost contact distances, but have seen other shootings where many have survived very well and were able to function.

As with most LE shotguns, which is typically the Rem 870 with an 18" barrel, the spread tends to be around 1" for every yard distance with 00 Buck...not good for home use. Put it thru an Imp Cyl, and life gets better.

Life gets much better with #4 Buck thru Imp Cyl, as you've got many more pellets stacked which gives more than plenty of poop needed to do the job.

I will never knowingly give out info that I feel would ever put someone at a disadvantage.