Suggested Shotgun Shells for Home Defense?

[DeanMk]

Yep, and alllll those guns are loaded with 00 buck or slugs for a reason!

They use the buck shot as an anti-material device...i.e., they're real good at busting open locked doors.
However, if I shoot you at 30 feet, you're not going notice whether its #9 shot or triple O buck, you're only going to realize it hurts like heck.....might be the last thing you ever feel.
Something to realize - 30' = 10 yards.
At 10 yards, a shotgun pattern runs between 9" (full choke) to 19" (cylinder bore). Modified patterns about a foot wide at 10 yards.
If you're using a high brass ounce and a quarter load of bird shot, that's almost 300 pellets jammed into that little space.
It's going to feel like one giant block hitting you, not a lot of tiny little pellets.
Trust me, it's still going to be effective.


Dean

 

[Geardo]

Not sure why you posted the above article, as bird shot or #12 is nowhere effective as #4 Buck...don't think it's mentioned as being a viable option in this thread.

I've got info with 2 shootings with #4 Buck, 2 with #4 Bird, 3 with #6 Bird and 2 with #12...and numerous with 00 Buck, those being LE stats.

#4 Buck, because of the spread, internally took out everything south of the chin. Distances were approx. 17 and 27 feet.

#4 Bird. Not as effective, but still put both on the stainless steel table. The internals did not show nearly the trauma the Buck did. Distances were approx. 20 and 25 feet.

#6 Bird. Again not as effective as the first two, but with one distance at approx. 12 feet, nothing more was needed. The other two distances were approx 15 and 25 feet.

#12 Bird were both almost contact distances, but have seen other shootings where many have survived very well and were able to function.

As with most LE shotguns, which is typically the Rem 870 with an 18" barrel, the spread tends to be around 1" for every yard distance with 00 Buck...not good for home use. Put it thru an Imp Cyl, and life gets better.

Life gets much better with #4 Buck thru Imp Cyl, as you've got many more pellets stacked which gives more than plenty of poop needed to do the job.

I will never knowingly give out info that I feel would ever put someone at a disadvantage.

I think we may have been talking past each other a bit. Probably my fault as I have been on a tear in this thread!

Your findings align with what I would have figured.

I have been trying to push #4 buck through this whole thread, although maybe I didn't make that clear. It is a good compromise between wall penetration and lethality.

Thank you for providing the details! I forsee arguing with you in person in one of your classes in my future

 

[Geardo]

They use the buck shot as an anti-material device...i.e., they're real good at busting open locked doors.
However, if I shoot you at 30 feet, you're not going notice whether its #9 shot or triple O buck, you're only going to realize it hurts like heck.....might be the last thing you ever feel.
Something to realize - 30' = 10 yards.
At 10 yards, a shotgun pattern runs between 9" (full choke) to 19" (cylinder bore). Modified patterns about a foot wide at 10 yards.
If you're using a high brass ounce and a quarter load of bird shot, that's almost 300 pellets jammed into that little space.
It's going to feel like one giant block hitting you, not a lot of tiny little pellets.
Trust me, it's still going to be effective.


Dean

Check out Cerebus' reply below. I will defer to his real world data and let you make your own conclusions. I wiuod use #4 buck.

 

[DeanMk]

Cerebus only backed up what I'm saying.
Whether its #4 buckshot or #6 birdshot, at "in-home distances", its still going to be an effective man stopper.

 

[Geardo]

Cerebus only backed up what I'm saying.
Whether its #4 buckshot or #6 birdshot, at "in-home distances", its still going to be an effective man stopper.

Why would you pick something less effective. His data is subject to selection bias. He didn't see the victims that got hit with #6 bird and lived.

Use #4 buck and practice enough it will be an academic argument anyway.

 

[Cerberus Group]

I posted what I actually witnessed, I've got data from other investigators from various agencies.

I'v seen people live after being shot with a 44 mag, and die from a .22 LR, shot placement will always be paramount...BUT, it's always more paramount with a lesser powered round.

My comparisons of those that succumbed, were just that...comparisons, and I don't argue with what's in front of me. From the trauma I saw, I would not hesitate to use either of the 4's or the 6.

Taco_lean, my study was based on 42 witnessed autopsies, along with data from other agencies I was able to get ahold of from 2003-2008. Like I stated, not definitive, but enough info for me to direct me with some confidence...but there's so many things in the human body that factor into ballistic performance, which can make the results inconsistent.

I look forward to meeting you and having informative discussions.

I'll leave the discussion to you gentleman...in the words of Paul Harvey...Good Day!

 

[Geardo]

I posted what I actually witnessed, I've got data from other investigators from various agencies.

I'v seen people live after being shot with a 44 mag, and die from a .22 LR, shot placement will always be paramount...BUT, it's always more paramount with a lesser powered round.

My comparisons of those that succumbed, were just that...comparisons, and I don't argue with what's in front of me. From the trauma I saw, I would not hesitate to use either of the 4's or the 6.

Taco_lean, my study was based on 42 witnessed autopsies, along with data from other agencies I was able to get ahold of from 2003-2008. Like I stated, not definitive, but enough info for me to direct me with some confidence...but there's so many things in the human body that factor into ballistic performance, which can make the results inconsistent.

I look forward to meeting you and having informative discussions.

I'll leave the discussion to you gentleman...in the words of Paul Harvey...Good Day!

Great feedback. It is so rare to get real world experience. Correct me if I am wrong though, if the results are from autopsies, you can only compare different "levels" of damage from rounds that were all lethal. Isn't the study inherently lacking the data points of people that lived?

Maybe I am misunderstanding.

Anyways, I haven't seen the damage up close, and don't want to, but from what you observed, it seems logical to logical to pick #4 buck, but I always tend to be conservative.

I 100% agree with your comment on shot placement, and vast # of uncontrolable variables.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Yes, you are correct. All my data that being from bullets and shotgun rounds are from victims, not the living.

Thus my comparisons on shot shells are based on a combination of trauma observed coupled with the distance delivered.

Tell ya what, I'll start a separate thread with some of my findings, along with a few bullets pulled from victims.

 

[Geardo]

Yes, you are correct. All my data that being from bullets and shotgun rounds are from victims, not the living.

Thus my comparisons on shot shells are based on a combination of trauma observed coupled with the distance delivered.

Tell ya what, I'll start a separate thread with some of my findings, along with a few bullets pulled from victims.

Hmmmm trauma thread right before dinner

 

[Cerberus Group]

There will be no photos of any trauma, bullets only...and they are clean.

 

[ItsLunchBOX]

I run #4 buck in my home defense shotgun.

 

[SIG34]

Military 0-0 buck followed by 1oz deer slug just Incase!!!

 

[Geardo]

12 ga slugs are no joke. Put one clean Through a 200lb pig at 60 yards. Dropped it like a sack of bubblegum

 

[DeanMk]

Why would you pick something less effective. His data is subject to selection bias. He didn't see the victims that got hit with #6 bird and lived.

Use #4 buck and practice enough it will be an academic argument anyway.

Because not everyone is a paranoid psycho who thinks the world is out to get him.
MY point is that hunting loads can also be an effective man stopper.
The popular notion is that you need a separate "home defense load" on hand, in case you have to defend your home (and if you notice lately, ammo makers are more than happy to cater to the hysteria).
While I will admit that is not the worst idea, if I'm awoken in the middle of the night because some yahoo is rummaging through my living room, and I go to grab my shotgun because its the nearest gun to me at that moment, I'm not going to stop in mid grab and think to myself, oh gee, I forgot to restock my 'home defense loads', I only have Duck and Pheasant loads for it, I better not use it....now where did I put my .44?
Seriously?
Grab the dang shotgun, load it with whatever you have on hand and coerce the intruder to go somewhere else!
Just because an avid upland bird hunter doesn't have any buckshot loads on hand, because its not the main purpose for having his shotgun, it doesn't mean that person is "under gunned".

Dean

 

[Geardo]

Because not everyone is a paranoid psycho who thinks the world is out to get him.
MY point is that hunting loads can also be an effective man stopper.
The popular notion is that you need a separate "home defense load" on hand, in case you have to defend your home (and if you notice lately, ammo makers are more than happy to cater to the hysteria).
While I will admit that is not the worst idea, if I'm awoken in the middle of the night because some yahoo is rummaging through my living room, and I go to grab my shotgun because its the nearest gun to me at that moment, I'm not going to stop in mid grab and think to myself, oh gee, I forgot to restock my 'home defense loads', I only have Duck and Pheasant loads for it, I better not use it....now where did I put my .44?
Seriously?
Grab the dang shotgun, load it with whatever you have on hand and coerce the intruder to go somewhere else!
Just because an avid upland bird hunter doesn't have any buckshot loads on hand, because its not the main purpose for having his shotgun, it doesn't mean that person is "under gunned".

Dean

I am a paranoid physcho. I have body armor and a suppressed AR next to my bed, but I sleep very well at night! Not gonna argue that.

But the idea that someone can't afford a cheap AR15 to defend there home is pretty assinine. Hunting is a hobby, an expensive one at that. Sell one of the nice bird guns or hunting rifles and buy a dedicated HD gun. Ar15 or 18" shotgun loaded with buckshot. Its a few hundred bucks. Who cares. Then you don't have to worry what is in your hunting gun.


And YES. If you go up against and intruder who is using a handgun or rifle, and you have your bubbleguming bird gun with 3 rds of bird shot, you are going to get rocked.

 

[Argonaut]

My Army units only rocked 2-3/4" OOB when we carried shotguns.

I am a paranoid physcho. I have body armor and a suppressed AR next to my bed, but I sleep very well at night! Not gonna argue that.

But the idea that someone can't afford a cheap AR15 to defend there home is pretty assinine. Hunting is a hobby, an expensive one at that. Sell one of the nice bird guns or hunting rifles and buy a dedicated HD gun. Ar15 or 18" shotgun loaded with buckshot. Its a few hundred bucks. Who cares. Then you don't have to worry what is in your hunting gun.


And YES. If you go up against and intruder who is using a handgun or rifle, and you have your bubbleguming bird gun with 3 rds of bird shot, you are going to get rocked.

you are watching too much TV.

 

[DeanMk]

Taco_Lean,

I have to respectfully disagree....I mean, what if I pick up the wrong shotgun to defend my home with?
"wait mr. intruder! I have the wrong shotgun. Stay there and I'll be right back with the proper weapon. I won't be but a second! There's cookies on the counter if you're hungry!"
HA! Man, get real.

 

[Argonaut]

At 20 feet my 1938 Schuler hand built trap gun would cut a hole through a person like a 70 caliber rifle.

 

[DeanMk]

Wow, that's nice Argo!

 

[Kruel J]

I'll admit I didn't read this whole thread. But I will say I've always ran #4 turkey loads in my HD shotgun.