Spectacle on tv

[U201491]

They are making a spectacle on ch2 on the cc towncenter tonight and pushing the bg cks and other bullpucky.
The father of one victim said he would not go when asked. He feels they are making a celebration about his sons death and didnt like it.
Damned libs dont ever let people live in peace. The just dramatize it and trample the victims to push their sick agendas. Always doing the grave dance.

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[simon99]

On Lars radio show today they mentioned that nearly 2 million deadly crimes are STOPPED every year due to legal concealed carry owners. Why don't they ever talk about that?

 

[44mag2ndamend]

Taku, I have to thank you for bringing Truth to Light here on NWF. You do our community a great service.

 

[3MTA3]

On Lars radio show today they mentioned that nearly 2 million deadly crimes are STOPPED every year due to legal concealed carry owners. Why don't they ever talk about that?

For the same reason that while they state that the shooter killed himself when his gun jammed and he was cornered, won't mention that he was cornered by a private citizen with a carry permit. Predictably, they have brought up Sandy Hook and the fact that Oregon hadn't passed any new gun control legislation several times.

If its laws they want how about these that would have been pertinent in both cases:
1) Make it illegal to steal a firearm.
2) Make it illegal to use a firearm or any other weapon including your hands to kill other people if you aren't doing it to protect yourself or others.

 

[U201491]

Yes, only leftist bias reporting and they really don't care about hurting victims families as long as it serves them. They are little more than users. No Real compassion for anyone but themselves. The fact a chl person essentially put a stop to it goes against their entire agenda, so they wont bring it up.
Its up to all of us to make sure everyone knows.

 

[3MTA3]

I especially enjoyed all the fake emotion displayed. It was very apparent at the end where they went from near tears to all smiles when they mentioned that when you go inside how every thing seemed to be back to normal.

 

[U201491]

Taku, I have to thank you for bringing Truth to Light here on NWF. You do our community a great service.

Thank you I try just like many many others do.
It takes a force of many to fight these destroyers. Sick part of it is many really dont comprehend the harm they do. Just lemmings following evil leaders over the cliff.
The useful idiots that do the harm and socialist/Marxists and communist agenda pushers leading them by the nose rings.

 

[captqc]

No mention of mental illness on the part of the shooter, the legal carry holder that stopped him from killing more people. Just a bunch of leftist Anti-gun ranting at the expense of the victim's families. Loved the part about how the Oregon legislators tried to pass sensible gun laws but none passed! Really???? Sensible??? Give me a break!!!

 

[fd15k]

On Lars radio show today they mentioned that nearly 2 million deadly crimes are STOPPED every year due to legal concealed carry owners. Why don't they ever talk about that?

What is interesting about that number is that it is based on self-reporting. Basically it was a survey conducted largely on the same principles as some polls people criticize here for use of statistics. Can we really sit on two chairs whenever it suits us ?

 

[mancat]

For the same reason that while they state that the shooter killed himself when his gun jammed and he was cornered, won't mention that he was cornered by a private citizen with a carry permit. Predictably, they have brought up Sandy Hook and the fact that Oregon hadn't passed any new gun control legislation several times.

If its laws they want how about these that would have been pertinent in both cases:
1) Make it illegal to steal a firearm.
2) Make it illegal to use a firearm or any other weapon including your hands to kill other people if you aren't doing it to protect yourself or others.

I've heard it mentioned several times to which the reply is "you don't know that he stopped the shooting."

Really? Because the guy pulled his concealed piece, the shooter saw him, and the next thing that occurred was that the shooter was dead of a self-inflicted shot. Nobody else was shot, and it was because the man pulled his pistol and aimed it at the shooter. He didn't even have to fire, and the shooter knew he was done for.

Seems like a pretty clear case of 1+1=2, unless you ask a rabid anti-gunner, in which case the answer is 1+1=?

 

[erudne]

Who, What, Where, Why?
No idea what is being discussed

 

[U201491]

Who, What, Where, Why?
No idea what is being discussed

Just a comment on the biased incomplete information special on ch2 about the Clackamas town Center shooter.
The anti gun bunch had to dance on the graves again.

 

[ARKLITE881South]

How about Channel 8 news person Pat Dorris, stating a "AUTOMATIC '' weapon was used in the shooting? I think everyone should flood channel 8 news complaining about the BIAS reporting and not using the correct wording when reporting. Semi automatic rifle would have been more in line. Lets face it, ''THEY'' want to trample all over gun owners. And, what's with ''celebrating'' the date of the mall shooting. Whats to ''celebrate'', let people have their privacy and mourn in private. I'm sure the anti gun establishment started this whole ''celebration''thing. Fanning the flames again. Wonder what would be said, if a news personality was SAVED, or protected by a ccw person? Would that make the big news??

 

[simon99]

Maybe they should go down in front of Planned Parenthood and "celebrate" the 3,500 children they aborted today?

 

[deen_ad]

What is interesting about that number is that it is based on self-reporting. Basically it was a survey conducted largely on the same principles as some polls people criticize here for use of statistics. Can we really sit on two chairs whenever it suits us ?

Nope, been statistically proven by Gary Kleck years ago and even the best anti-gun nuts could only say that they couldn't dispute the methodology and conclusions. And it wasn't a "survey" either.

Marvin Wolfgang, who was one of the most prominent criminologists, commented on Kleck's research concerning defensive gun use (see How often are guns used in self-defense?):

I am as strong a gun-control advocate as can be found among the criminologists in this country. If I were Mustapha Mond of Brave New World, I would eliminate all guns from the civilian population and maybe even from the police. I hate guns--ugly, nasty instruments designed to kill people. ...

What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator... I have to admit my admiration for the care and caution expressed in this article and this research. ...

Can it be true that about two million instances occur each year in which a gun was used as a defensive measure against crime? It is hard to believe. Yet, it is hard to challenge the data collected. We do not have contrary evidence. The National Crime Victim Survey does not directly contravene this latest survey, nor do the Mauser and Hart studies. ...

Nevertheless, the methodological soundness of the current Kleck and Gertz study is clear. I cannot further debate it. ...

The Kleck and Gertz study impresses me for the caution the authors exercise and the elaborate nuances they examine methodologically. I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology. They have tried earnestly to meet all objections in advance and have done exceedingly well.
--- Marvin E. Wofgang, "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology 1995, Vol. 86 No. 1.)

GunCite-Who is Gary Kleck?




Deen
NRA Life Member, Benefactor Level
Defender of Freedom Award
NRA Recruiter
Second Amendment Foundation Member
Washington Arms Collectors Member
Arms Collectors of SW Washington Member

"A gun is like a parachute. If you need one and don't have it, you'll probably never need one again!"

 

[fd15k]

Nope, been statistically proven by Gary Kleck years ago and even the best anti-gun nuts could only say that they couldn't dispute the methodology and conclusions. And it wasn't a "survey" either.

Gary Kleck, Ph.D. is a professor in the School of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Florida State University in Tallahassee and author of "Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America" (Aldine de Gruyter, 1991), a book widely cited in the national gun-control debate. In an exclusive interview, Dr. Kleck revealed some preliminary results of the National Self- Defense Survey which he and his colleague Dr. Marc Gertz conducted in Spring, 1993.

So, survey.

The new survey, conducted by random telephone sampling of 4,978 households in all the states except Alaska and Hawaii, yield results indicating that American civilians use their firearms as often as 2.5 million times every year defending against a confrontation with a criminal, and that handguns alone account for up to 1.9 million defenses per year.

Sample size is roughly 5000. What was the survey our guys ridiculed in another thread, what was the sample size there ?

Previous surveys, in Kleck's analysis, had underrepresented the extent of private firearms defenses because the questions asked failed to account for the possibility that a particular respondent might have had to use his or her firearm more than once.

He must be right. I used my firearm at least a dozen times last year to protect myself. There are no police reports filed though, because I didn't kill or injure anybody in the process.

Readers may be interested to know that Kleck is a member of the ACLU, Amnesty International USA, and Common Cause, among other politically liberal organizations. He is also a lifelong registered Democrat. He is not and has never been a member of or contributor to the NRA, Handgun Control Inc., or any other advocacy group on either side of the gun-control issue, nor has he received funding for research from any such organization.

So he is a mole. I am just not sure which side he is on.

Private Guns Stop Crime 2.5M Times A Year In US

 

[simon99]

So, survey.



Sample size is roughly 5000. What was the survey our guys ridiculed in another thread, what was the sample size there ?



He must be right. I used my firearm at least a dozen times last year to protect myself. There are no police reports filed though, because I didn't kill or injure anybody in the process.



So he is a mole. I am just not sure which side he is on.

Private Guns Stop Crime 2.5M Times A Year In US

Just to add, there has been numerous reports from both the FBI and DOJ that have supported gun ownership and usage....it just never makes it to primetime because the evidence is so damning to liberal anti-gun agendas....

see below -

Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives

A. Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they inflict

* Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day. [1] This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives. [2]

* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.[3]

* As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.[4]

* Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America" -- a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.[5]

* Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).[6] And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."[7]

* Handguns are the weapon of choice for self-defense. Citizens use handguns to protect themselves over 1.9 million times a year. [8] Many of these self-defense handguns could be labeled as "Saturday Night Specials."

B. Concealed carry laws help reduce crime

* Nationwide: one-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from home. [9] * Concealed carry laws are dropping crime rates across the country. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The results of the study showed:

* States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%; [10] and * If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.[11]

* Vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission... without paying a fee... or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. And yet for ten years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the top-five, safest states in the union -- having three times received the "Safest State Award."[12]

* Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rates in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state. [13] FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year period -- thus putting the Florida rate below the national average. [14]

* Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is far more likely to be attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder.

1. During the first fifteen years that the Florida law was in effect, alligator attacks outpaced the number of crimes committed by carry holders by a 229 to 155 margin.

2. And even the 155 "crimes" committed by concealed carry permit holders are somewhat misleading as most of these infractions resulted from Floridians who accidentally carried their firearms into restricted areas, such as an airport. [15]

C. Criminals avoid armed citizens

* Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole. [16]

* Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed. [17]

* Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:

* Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries); and, * Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%. [18] Rapes averted when women carry or use firearms for protection

* Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando's rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation. [19]

* Nationwide. In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful. [20] Justice Department study:

* 3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun." [21]

* 74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."[22] * 57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police." [23]


[1] Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun," 86 The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, 1 (Fall 1995):164. Dr. Kleck is a professor in the school of criminology and criminal justice at Florida State University in Tallahassee. He has researched extensively and published several essays on the gun control issue. His book, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, has become a widely cited source in the gun control debate. In fact, this book earned Dr. Kleck the prestigious American Society of Criminology Michael J. Hindelang award for 1993. This award is given for the book published in the past two to three years that makes the most outstanding contribution to criminology. Even those who don't like the conclusions Dr. Kleck reaches, cannot argue with his impeccable research and methodology. In "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," Marvin E. Wolfgang writes that, "What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator.... I have to admit my admiration for the care and caution expressed in this article and this research. Can it be true that about two million instances occur each year in which a gun was used as a defensive measure against crime? It is hard to believe. Yet, it is hard to challenge the data collected. We do not have contrary evidence." Wolfgang, "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, at 188.

Wolfgang says there is no "contrary evidence." Indeed, there are more than a dozen national polls -- one of which was conducted by The Los Angeles Times -- that have found figures comparable to the Kleck-Gertz study. Even the Clinton Justice Department (through the National Institute of Justice) found there were as many as 1.5 million defensive users of firearms every year. See National Institute of Justice, "Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms," Research in Brief (May 1997).

As for Dr. Kleck, readers of his materials may be interested to know that he is a member of the ACLU, Amnesty International USA, and Common Cause. He is not and has never been a member of or contributor to any advocacy group on either side of the gun control debate.

[2] According to the National Safety Council, the total number of gun deaths (by accidents, suicides and homicides) account for less than 30,000 deaths per year. See Injury Facts, published yearly by the National Safety Council, Itasca, Illinois.

[3] Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime," at 173, 185.

[4]Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime," at 185.

[5]Philip J. Cook and Jens Ludwig, "Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms," NIJ Research in Brief (May 1997); available at http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/165476.txt on the internet. The finding of 1.5 million yearly self-defense cases did not sit well with the anti-gun bias of the study's authors, who attempted to explain why there could not possibly be one and a half million cases of self-defense every year. Nevertheless, the 1.5 million figure is consistent with a mountain of independent surveys showing similar figures. The sponsors of these studies -- nearly a dozen -- are quite varied, and include anti-gun organizations, news media organizations, governments and commercial polling firms. See also Kleck and Gertz, supra note 1, pp. 182-183.

[6]Kleck, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, (1991):111-116, 148.

[7]George F. Will, "Are We 'a Nation of Cowards'?," Newsweek (15 November 1993):93.

[8]Id. at 164, 185.

[9]Dr. Gary Kleck, interview with J. Neil Schulman, "Q and A: Guns, crime and self-defense," The Orange County Register (19 September 1993). In the interview with Schulman, Dr. Kleck reports on findings from a national survey which he and Dr. Marc Gertz conducted in Spring, 1993 -- a survey which findings were reported in Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime."

[10]One of the authors of the University of Chicago study reported on the study's findings in John R. Lott, Jr., "More Guns, Less Violent Crime," The Wall Street Journal (28 August 1996). See also John R. Lott, Jr. and David B. Mustard, "Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns," University of Chicago (15 August 1996); and Lott, More Guns, Less Crime (1998, 2000).

[11]Lott and Mustard, "Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns."

[12]Kathleen O'Leary Morgan, Scott Morgan and Neal Quitno, "Rankings of States in Most Dangerous/Safest State Awards 1994 to 2003," Morgan Quitno Press (2004) at Most Dangerous/Safest State Award 1994-2003. Morgan Quitno Press is an independent private research and publishing company which was founded in 1989. The company specializes in reference books and monthly reports that compare states and cities in several different subject areas. In the first 10 years in which they published their Safest State Award, Vermont has consistently remained one of the top five safest states.

[13]Memo by Jim Smith, Secretary of State, Florida Department of State, Division of Licensing, Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical Report (October 1, 2002).
14Florida's murder rate was 11.4 per 100,000 in 1987, but only 5.5 in 2002. Compare Federal Bureau of Investigation, "Crime in the United States," Uniform Crime Reports, (1988): 7, 53; and FBI, (2003):19, 79.

[15]John R. Lott, Jr., "Right to carry would disprove horror stories," Kansas City Star, (July 12, 2003).

[16]Gary Kleck, "Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force," Social Problems 35 (February 1988):15.

[17]Compare Kleck, "Crime Control," at 15, and Chief Dwaine L. Wilson, City of Kennesaw Police Department, "Month to Month Statistics: 1991." (Residential burglary rates from 1981-1991 are based on statistics for the months of March - October.)

[18]Kleck, Point Blank, at 140.

[19]Kleck, "Crime Control," at 13.

[20]U.S. Department of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Rape Victimization in 26 American Cities (1979), p. 31.

[21]U.S., Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, "The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons," Research Report (July 1985): 27.

[22]Id.

[23]Id.

 

[fd15k]

Just to add, there has been numerous reports from both the FBI and DOJ that have supported gun ownership and usage....it just never makes it to primetime because the evidence is so damning to liberal anti-gun agendas....

Well, pick one from the list, and we will see what it is made of

 

[gaijinsamurai]

I was not surprised in the least when I saw The Oregonian go out of its way to discredit the account of the gun-carrying Good Samaritan who drew on the shooter and ended his carnage.

 

[ARKLITE881South]

I was not surprised in the least when I saw The Oregonian go out of its way to discredit the account of the gun-carrying Good Samaritan who drew on the shooter and ended his carnage.

Time to write in to the whorogonian and let them know if they keep up trying to discredit good Samaritan gun owners, we will start a move to get people to stop buying their worthless piece of garbage paper.