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Some C&R FAQs

Discussion in 'Curio & Relic Discussion' started by telero, Sep 26, 2014.

  1. telero

    telero Salem area, Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Here's the ATF C&R FAQ

    Here is a summary of questions that I have seen fairly often:

    Can you be in the business of buying/selling firearms with a C&R?
    -No. A C&R is not a dealer license


    What constitutes C&R?
    -Curio: A firearm specifically listed as a curio, regardless of age

    -Relic: Any firearm manufactured at least 50 years ago

    -Has to be in original condition


    When does a C&R firearm have to be entered into your "bound book?"
    -Any C&R firearm acquired while the C&R license is valid, whether or not the C&R firearm was acquired using the C&R license, 4473, or private transaction (18 U.S.C 27 CFR 478.125(f))

    -When selling any C&R firearm from your collection while your license is valid, regardless of when it was added to your collection. This includes firearms that were not C&R when you originally received them, but became C&R while licensed (18 U.S.C 27 CFR 478.125(g))


    Where is a C&R license allowed to be used?
    -Anywhere. A licensed dealer is only allowed to conduct business in certain locations, generally the premises listed on the license and gun shows. A licensed collector does not have the same restrictions. (18 USC 923(j))


    Can a C&R handgun be shipped via USPS by a C&R holder?
    -No. USPS for handguns is restricted to dealers (Domestic Mail Manual, Pub 52(432.2, 432.23)). Antique handguns as defined by postal regulations can be mailed by C&R holders (although they are not firearms by federal firearm law)

    When can the ATF inspect your records/firearms?
    -With a warrant: any time. Without a warrant: up to one every 12 months by appointment. Can be at the address on you C&R license, or at an ATF field office at the license holders request. (27 CFR 178.23)


    OREGON SPECIFIC

    Can a C&R holder perform private sales/purchases at a gunshow in Oregon?
    -Yes. But they still have to follow the private sales background check requirement. The only exception for gun shows is for licensed DEALERS. (ORS 166.438 - ORS 166.412)
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2014
  2. mthieme

    mthieme Whidbey Island Member

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    Information regarding shipping C&R via USPS is incorrect.
    The very same reference cited states you may ship C&R between licensees.
    The correct answer is YES.
     
  3. telero

    telero Salem area, Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Only if it's also an antique firearm.
     
  4. mthieme

    mthieme Whidbey Island Member

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    Read the regs. USPS differentiates between modern, C&R and andtique firearms. They are very specific about C&R's.
     
  5. telero

    telero Salem area, Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I did read it, and I updated my initial post to include the requirement that a handgun mailed between C&R holders also be an antique.

    432.2(a):
    Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2 and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3.
     
  6. mthieme

    mthieme Whidbey Island Member

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    Here's the rest of what you should have included with the original post ...

    http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2011/pb22321/html/updt_001.htm

    Policies, Procedures, and Forms Updates
    Manuals
    DMM Revision: Mailing Firearms — Clarification
    Effective November 7, 2011, the Postal Service™ will revise Mailing Standards of the United States Postal Service, Domestic Mail Manual (DMM®) 601.12.1 through 601.12.3 to clarify the standards surrounding the mailability of firearms.

    12.1.2Handguns
    a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 12.1.1g.

    12.1.1
    g.Curio and relic collector
    means an individual licensed by ATF to transfer or receive only those firearms defined as curios or relics by ATF under Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), section 478.11.

    Bottom line - you can mail C&R's.
     
  7. telero

    telero Salem area, Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    First off, you're posting an update from 2011. The Domestic Mail Manual I've linked to is from 2014. And they say the same thing:

    "a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 12.1.1g."

    So no, not all C&R handguns can be mailed between C&R holders. Only the very small subset that also meet the definition of an antique firearm, which by other federal definitions isn't even a firearm at all.
     
  8. mthieme

    mthieme Whidbey Island Member

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    Sorry to bruise your ego, but it's legal.
     
  9. telero

    telero Salem area, Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    My ego has no problem here. But you are making yourself look like an idiot.


    I'm quoting you above...I added the emphasis on the part where you contradict yourself.

    So quit trying to spread false information and confuse the situation. It's not actually legal for a C&R holder to mail or receive a handgun. To take the issue another step further, I'd argue that under the federal definition of a firearm, you can't mail a handgun at all. The postal regulation defines a firearm differently than federal law. What the postal regulations call an antique firearm isn't a firearm under federal law at all.
     
  10. mthieme

    mthieme Whidbey Island Member

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    I could say the same about you, but I have better manners and respect the TOS of the forum.
    Since you are only reading and emphasizing the part you want and an internet professor - perhaps you should consult your local postmaster, assuming he/she has a clue.
     
  11. telero

    telero Salem area, Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I emphasized the part that you posted, that specifically says you can't mail a C&R handgun unless it also meets the definition of an antique, which is not a firearm under federal law, only postal regulation. Please learn how to read and comprehend.

    I'm only trying to help others. You are saying incorrect things and trying to muddy the issues in order to elicit a response, which is the general definition of what a "troll" does.
     
  12. mthieme

    mthieme Whidbey Island Member

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    Again, you only read what you want and stop without reading the whole thing.
    I read and comprehend just fine, don't push me big boy. That's twice you have not minded your manners which I know you not do if we were face to face.

    ....under 12.1.1g.

    12.1.1
    g.Curio and relic collector
    means an individual licensed by ATF to transfer or receive only those firearms defined as curios or relics by ATF under Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), section 478.11.

    Bottom line - it's legal.
    If you don't think so - don't do it.
     
  13. telero

    telero Salem area, Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    You are the one that continues to misread and misunderstand the regulation. 12.1.1g only defines what a C&R holder is. It doesn't say what you can or cannot do within the postal system. 12.1.2 specifically says that handguns cannot be mailed between C&R holders (defined in 12.1.1g) unless they are also antiques. Antiques are not firearms under federal firearms law, but they are still restricted for mailing in postal regulation.

    It's not legal. Don't keep telling people that it is.
     
  14. B5Ben

    B5Ben Boise Well-Known Member

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    Redacted
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2014
  15. telero

    telero Salem area, Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Yes, UPS/FedEx etc. for C&R are fine, as long as you follow their corporate standards/policies.

    As far as the point of a C&R license, the point is you don't have to go through a dealer/background check for every C&R purchase. There are only some issues with how you can ship/receive some items. With a C&R you could be out of state and make a C&R pistol purchase (as long as state law allows it). With C&R you could have any C&R firearm shipped to your house. But if you want a C&R handgun to come via USPS, it has to go to a dealer. The dealer will likely charge a transfer fee, and they may or may not accept a C&R license to perform the transfer without a background check or 4473. That is their prerogative as a business. So check carefully if you decide to use a dealer. Or just have a C&R handgun shipped to you via UPS, FedEx, etc.
     
  16. B5Ben

    B5Ben Boise Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I redacted my earlier post because I wasn't quite sure what the actual question or misunderstanding was about and didn't have time to re-read at the moment.

    I had posted that using a different carrier would alleviate the USPS/postmaster issues and if it didn't then whats the point of a C&R. I have been considering a C&R for a couple months thinking I would get my $30 worth over 3 years but just haven't gotten it done yet. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
     
  17. coop44

    coop44 Tacoma ,WA Well-Known Member

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    The best 30 bucks I've spent in a long time, I only purchase from wholesalers/importers so how it's shipped is their liability. I have no control over that. Never gotten a gun from them shipped USPS, pretty much their SOP. Personally I don't trust the USPS. If you are so cheap you feel you must use them to save, what? 5 bucks? 10 bucks? Have at it.

    My minimum purchase level is 2 guns from them, it spreads the shipping costs out. Keep a careful eye out, occasionaly they offer deals on shipping, of course with some caveats like minimum order amounts.
     
  18. bolus

    bolus Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    I got a few parts from Brownells under the dealer cost for C&R holders, found a coupon for free shipping. $30 paid for itself right there.
     
    Modeler likes this.
  19. B5Ben

    B5Ben Boise Well-Known Member

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    Is a C&R still valid if you move to another state? I've looked around a bit but couldn't find an explicit answer. I would assume so as long as you update the ATF accordingly but again have not been able to verify.
     
  20. bolus

    bolus Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Doing a search it looks like you just have to notify the ATF of the address change with this form
    http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5300-38.pdf

    I think if I was moving, I'd give the local ATF office a call just to make sure I did everything that was needed.