Looking for some info on these 2 Military ? Gun Ammo Belts .

[shotgun]

Looking for some info on these 2 Military ? Gun Ammo Belts . 1 looks llke its for clips and the other shotgun shells .

Got these at a Estate Sale . Not something I collect , but thought they were COOL !!! Are they reproductions ??? If not , any info on them would be great. Are they WWII , Nam , or after that ? Value ? Both look un-used . What do you think ? THANKS for the help .

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[Longwalkhome]

pictures of old us military shotgun belts - Bing

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[Andy54Hawken]

The top belt is a either a pre-war , as in 1920's or 1930's cartridge belt for the 1903 Springfield rifle...
Or a early WWII cartridge belt for the 03 or M1 rifle.

The bottom belt is a shotgun cartridge carrier 1920's - 1930's vintage...US issue.
Andy

 

[Moeca]

I have a book at home ill try to dig out and check tonight. Thinking Andy is correct on time frame with both. Shotshell belt is most likely a Mills. Could possibly be pre WW1 but dosnt look quit right.
Both look original and dont have the normal reproduction marks.
If I can find the book ill post what I can find for you.

 

[shotgun]

The top belt is a either a pre-war , as in 1920's or 1930's cartridge belt for the 1903 Springfield rifle...
Or a early WWII cartridge belt for the 03 or M1 rifle.

The bottom belt is a shotgun cartridge carrier 1920's - 1930's vintage...US issue.
Andy

WOW !!! a lot earlier then I thought . THANKS for the info

 

[shotgun]

I have a book at home ill try to dig out and check tonight. Thinking Andy is correct on time frame with both. Shotshell belt is most likely a Mills. Could possibly be pre WW1 but dosnt look quit right.
Both look original and dont have the normal reproduction marks.
If I can find the book ill post what I can find for you.

THANK YOU ... hope you find the book

 

[Andy54Hawken]

WOW !!! a lot earlier then I thought . THANKS for the info

You are very welcome.

The "khaki" color is the first clue... Pre WWI through early WWII issue...mid WWII and later OD green.
Andy

 

[Longwalkhome]

Shotgun belt looks like gear used in the Philippines fighting the Moros.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Wrong buckle for Spanish American War or the The Philippine Insurrection era....
Andy

 

[Longwalkhome]

us army shotgun belt during philippines insurrection - Bing

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us army shotgun belt during philippines insurrection - Bing

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[Andy54Hawken]

us army shotgun belt during philippines insurrection - Bing

Pametno pretraživanje u tražilici Bing olakšava brzo pretraživanje onog što tražite i nagrađuje vas.

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us army shotgun belt during philippines insurrection - Bing

Pametno pretraživanje u tražilici Bing olakšava brzo pretraživanje onog što tražite i nagrađuje vas.

www.bing.com

Not all of those are correctly marked as Philippine Insurrection era...
The belt with the brass buckle and "US" is...the others are not.
Andy

 

[Stomper]

You are very welcome.

The "khaki" color is the first clue... Pre WWI through early WWII issue...mid WWII and later OD green.
Andy

It's a good thing, khaki is now reserved for the official uniform pants for State Farm insurance agents…..

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Soooo......
After looking a bit further into this shotgun belt....

The earliest web gear with grommets that I have seen is dated 1903 ...
And yes while the Moro campaign went till 1913...
The belt pictured could indeed have been used in said campaign.

However....
Having been in the Army , albeit not during the Philippine Insurrection or later Moro Campaign...
1899 -1902 for the Philippine Insurrection...Moro Rebellion 1899 -1913

I do know that even with planes and such as when I was in the Army...getting the latest and greatest of field gear out to those troops in the field , who actually need to use it....often didn't happen.
And...
The Army tends to hold onto and continue to issue older items till the stock is exhausted.

So , while that belt in the OP may have been used against the Moro's...
I would think that its most likely field use came about during say by our Naval Landing Forces at Veracruz in 1914..
Or with a Marine or US Army Infantryman , during one of our so called "Banana Republic" Wars of the 1920's -30's
Andy

 

[Longwalkhome]

Not saying the 1939 movie you can see free on YouTube is the definitive on insurrection gear but it's a good look at what the movies tried to show.

The Real Glory with Gary Cooper may be of interest if you want something about the Moros.

 

[Dozer99]

Top Belt - So without getting my hands on the first belt, I will cautiously say that it is a reproduction. The M-1910 Cartridge belt has 5 pouches per side and your belt has 5 on one side and 4 on the other. The stitching looks modern as well compared to the older style of stitching used in the early 1900's. (only exception was the M-1910 belt used in 1916 and it had a pistol pouch on the left side front over the existing pouch. Used in the 1916 Mexican expedition).

The Shotgun belt - I don't collect those, so I would have no real idea without looking close up at the stich pattern and craftsmanship.

Please see: https://americanmilitariareference.com/m1910-cartridge-belt-mounted-dismounted/

 

[Andy54Hawken]

The top belt looks like an M-1918 belt...Some versions of that model had 4 pouches on one side and 5 on the other...
to accommodate for a magazine pouch for the 1911 pistol.

That said...
There are a ton of reproductions out there to be had.

And with that said...
The wear on the belt looks like what is found on actual non replica belts...however judging this based on a picture is guess work at best.
Andy

 

[Dozer99]

M-1918 Bar gunners belt: https://americanmilitariareference.com/browning-automatic-rifle-belt/

M-1918 Grenade carrier belt: https://americanmilitariareference.com/m-1918-grenade-carrier/

The top belt is definitely patterned off of the M-1910 (adjustment at the small of the back).

Sorry Andy, but the M-1918 is nowhere close to the belt pictured in the OP first post. Also the M-1918 is not gathered at the bottom of the pouches, but has a clean stich running the length of the bottom of the pouch.

Also the reason the first pouch on the left side of the belt is different (flat) is for the attachment of the M-1912/18 pistol magazine pouch. However now that I look a little closer, the eyelets on the bottom of the left hand side of the belt are round and should be oval, so defiantly a reproduction.

Note: this is my opinion, from collecting U.S. Military gear starting in the 70's. I own many examples of each of these belts mentioned. Many of them found in old supply rooms, arms rooms, Ships arms lockers and old National Guard Armories during my 30 years of service.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

M-1918 Bar gunners belt: https://americanmilitariareference.com/browning-automatic-rifle-belt/

M-1918 Grenade carrier belt: https://americanmilitariareference.com/m-1918-grenade-carrier/

The top belt is definitely patterned off of the M-1910 (adjustment at the small of the back).

Sorry Andy, but the M-1918 is nowhere close to the belt pictured in the OP first post. Also the M-1918 is not gathered at the bottom of the pouches, but has a clean stich running the length of the bottom of the pouch.

Also the reason the first pouch on the left side of the belt is different (flat) is for the attachment of the M-1912/18 pistol magazine pouch. However now that I look a little closer, the eyelets on the bottom of the left hand side of the belt are round and should be oval, so defiantly a reproduction.

Note: this is my opinion, from collecting U.S. Military gear starting in the 70's. I own many examples of each of these belts mentioned. Many of them found in old supply rooms, arms rooms, Ships arms lockers and old National Guard Armories during my 30 years of service.

I understand...but disagree with almost as much experience in collecting US Field Gear as you have,

In any event....saying that one is something or not...based on a photograph...is guess work at best.
As you mentioned earlier....seeing the item in person is best.
Andy

 

[Dozer99]

Sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone. Just trying to help out.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone. Just trying to help out.

Not offended by anything that you posted.

I am opting out of the thread because I am not computer savvy enough to post pictures and the like that
Describe what I am trying to say...and re-enforce my statements.

Also you made , as I mentioned before , an excellent point of it is difficult to say with any certainly about a item , based solely on a photograph.

Andy