Short Barreled Shotgun that isn't an NFA item

[Velzey]

14"
Legal they say

Show me the ATF letter of approval!

Ok even I had to read up a little and all perfectly legal, nothing to worry about.

 

[slimmer13]

What is the legal difference between this and say a Judge?

 

[etrain16]

14"
Legal they say

Show me the ATF letter of approval!

I found a little more info while googling the internets - it states that each gun will come with (2) ATF Tech Branch letters stating the ATF's opinion that these are federally legal and don't require a tax stamp.

They also state that the weapon transfers as a PGO (Pistol Grip Only)/Other on the 4473

Doesn't make it clear if it's considered a pistol - if it was, wouldn't it have to have a rifled barrel rather than a smooth bore? They say these are built off a Mossberg 500 Cruiser. It does have a 14" barrel and an overall length of 26 1/2" - apparently they are also using the 'front end' from a Mossberg 590A1. Capacity is 5+1 using 2 3/4" shells.

Seems like more dancing around technicalities than I'd want to deal with.

All that aside, I think just firing this beast would be punishment enough

 

[Velzey]

Yep I had to get the big book out...Interesting
Sure isn't much info on the MFG website.

 

[revjen45]

So how is this any different legally from a Serbu?

 

[revjen45]

And wouldn't a rifled bbl make it a Destructive Device?

 

[Boboclown]

In regards to this being a new thing... Not really. There's always been the firearm classification, which is why certain AR pistols could have VFGs and others could not. A shotgun with a pistol grip instead of a stock is a firearm, as long as it meets the 26" minimum its good to go.

So how is this any different legally from a Serbu?

Shorter than 26".

 

[The Heretic]

I would never use a SIG brace as a stock even if SHTF. If the law no longer mattered I would just add one of the stocks I have lying around (which are of course spares for my regular AR's) to one of my AR pistols. That is why it is great to have spare parts around.

A good point.

However, there will usually be some period of time where law enforcement still exists, but you can rely on it much less than now, and the point where ROL no longer exists, may never come about - the gov./society may recover before that happens.

So you may still find yourself in a situation where you need the short AR/AK/etc. "pistol" but need to use the brace against your shoulder in a defensive situation. Hell, that could happen today in a non-SHTF situation.

To me, the value of such firearms is that they are legally a handgun, and therefore, where allowed, can be carried concealed and loaded if you have the permit to do so. Whereas most long guns you cannot legally carry them concealed on your person - especially loaded.

As for the non-NFA shorty shotguns - my understanding is that they slip through a federal loophole - for now. I think it won't be too long before the ATF and/or Congress do something about that particular loophole. The states most likely will before then.

Personally, I would rather have a bullpup shotgun than something that I can't put to my shoulder and is that short. I can only see a limited use for that.

 

[Boboclown]

It isn't a loophole. Its law. By law its a firearm not a SBS or AOW. It has a barrel length shorter than 18" but OAL is still 26" and it was made with a pistol grip in place of a stock. For shotguns, that's a firearm.

Short of removing banning the classification, or adding it to the NFA list, there's nothing they can do about it.

 

[The Heretic]

It isn't a loophole. Its law. By law its a "firearm" not a SBS or AOW. It has a barrel length shorter than 18" but OAL is still 26" and it was made with a pistol grip in place of a stock. For shotguns, that's a "firearm."

Short of removing banning the classification, or adding it to the NFA list, there's nothing they can do about it.

Loophole: "an ambiguity or inadequacy in the law or a set of rules."

Since the intention of the NFA was to restrict short barreled shotguns, I would assert that this is indeed a loophole.

Also, the ATF has placed shotguns on the list of DDs before, they may do it again.

<broken link removed>

Since these shotguns are not "particularly suitable for sporting purposes;" I would not be surprised that they wind up on the list of DDs.

It is bogus (being a matter of opinion - the opinion of the ATF), but there it is. It sucks, but if those other shotguns could wind up on the DD list, I think these certainly may also. At which point owners will be required to destroy them or give them up to authorities.

Oh, and state law can certainly be more restrictive than federal law, and often is.

 

[MountainBear]

This is moderately cool, but I can't bring myself to invest in something the ATF could determine was illegal tomorrow. Seems every time something exploits a loophole and becomes popular, the ATF decides to issue a new directive and it becomes illegal. It's the same reason I don't own a sig brace. It was a great loophole while it lasted, but I have friends who were stuck with three of four of the things for their "pistols" and now they're stuck with them.

 

[Velzey]

Yep perfectly legal mfg with a modified pistol grip so it will stay within the 26" oal requirements.. The barrel can even be shorter and PG modified longer and still be legal..

Pleasant to shoot? I bet not!

 

[The Heretic]

This is moderately cool, but I can't bring myself to invest in something the ATF could determine was illegal tomorrow. Seems every time something exploits a loophole and becomes popular, the ATF decides to issue a new directive and it becomes illegal. It's the same reason I don't own a sig brace. It was a great loophole while it lasted, but I have friends who were stuck with three of four of the things for their "pistols" and now they're stuck with them.

They can still own and use them - they just can't let anybody photograph or video them doing so, or let a LEO see them doing it.

 

[The Heretic]

Yep perfectly legal mfg with a modified pistol grip so it will stay within the 26" oal requirements.. The barrel can even be shorter and PG modified longer and still be legal..

Pleasant to shoot? I bet not!

From what I understand is that it has to be manufactured that way, not manufactured and later modified to be that way.

Kind of like the court ruling where you can make a pistol into a rifle, and back again, but you can't modify a rifle to be a handgun - even though the firearms are technically equivalent - it is all about what they were originally manufactured and sold as.

 

[Boboclown]

Loophole: "an ambiguity or inadequacy in the law or a set of rules."

Since the intention of the NFA was to restrict short barreled shotguns, I would assert that this is indeed a loophole.

Also, the ATF has placed shotguns on the list of DDs before, they may do it again.

<broken link removed>

Since these shotguns are not "particularly suitable for sporting purposes;" I would not be surprised that they wind up on the list of DDs.

It is bogus (being a matter of opinion - the opinion of the ATF), but there it is. It sucks, but if those other shotguns could wind up on the DD list, I think these certainly may also. At which point owners will be required to destroy them or give them up to authorities.

Oh, and state law can certainly be more restrictive than federal law, and often is.

Referring to federal law, state laws can do as they do (even though I may disagree with them strongly when it comes to restrictions on guns). Again, yes they were on the DD list. By law at the time they were DD. By law now, they aren't, as long as they have a "sporting purpose".

So let's run through it again. By law its a firearm, not a SBS or AOW. It isn't a loophole, its the law that states it as a firearm. Unless you remove the definition, remove shotguns from the definition, or add anything in the definition to the NFA list, federally there's nothing that can be done about it. As long it was 1) Made with a pistol grip instead of stock 2) Has a barrel length shorter than 18" 3) Meets the 26" OAL minimum, its a firearm.

If the ATF deems it has no sporting purposes, then its no longer in the firearm category and is welcomed by the DD family.

 

[The Heretic]

And I predict it won't take long for the ATF to do just that (add it to the DD list by determining that it is not "suitable for sporting purposes"). Few people are going to hunt ducks with one of these.

The whole "sporting purpose" idea is bogus - the Second Amendment isn't about hunting ducks, it is about a balance of power between citizens and government. But there it is and here we are.

 

[Boboclown]

Course its bogus, and they know that. They just don't care.

The only thing they can do with this is just say "no sporting purpose and the bore diameter is bigger than such and such." That would be the loophole they use to ban it.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

So how is this any different legally from a Serbu?

Serbu is an AOW and requires a tax stamp. Also, this does not have a pistol grip.

 

[clearconscience]

I'm a little confused on how this grip can be legal and why a regular pistol grip isn't?
If you can make a AR pistol with a pistol grip how is this different?
Is a shotgun law different than rifle caliber laws?

An AR pistol doesn't have to be a min of 26", why does this?


I'm not a shotgun person ( for lack of funding, mainly)

 

[Boboclown]

Serbu is an AOW and requires a tax stamp. Also, this does not have a pistol grip.

It can have a pistol grip. It just has to be 26" inches in order to be a firearm and not an AOW. As far as the ATF is concerned, that "shotgun" has a pistol grip.

An AR pistol doesn't have to be a min of 26", why does this?

The AR pistol is a pistol, not a firearm. The "shotgun" in question needs the 26" OAL in order to be a firearm (not a pistol, rifle, or shotgun) and not an AOW. It doesn't need to be 26" to have a pistol grip.

Edit: To clarify it has to be made that way, not modified.