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Washington Second amendment language
- Thread Starter coop44
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For accuracy:
Between 1776 and 1780, the 13 colonies changed into States.
Eleven adopted new written Constitutions, seven of those included Bills of Rights, the other four wrote a few or several protections of civil rights into the body of their new Constitutions instead of writing separate Bills of Rights.
The remaining two states stayed on their 17th century charter or orders.
The State Bills of Rights and Constitutions predated the US Constitution by 8 to 12 years.
Much of the language for the federal Bill of Rights came straight from State Bills of Rights.
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For fun:
The phrase "well regulated" most likely originated among clock and watch sellers and buyers of the 1700's.
18th century regulator clocks (pendulum clocks) were tuned for accuracy by adjusting the regulator nut on the pendulum which slightly changed the pendulum arm length which changed the rate at which the mechanism would operate (keep time).
18th century watches were tuned by adjusting the position of curb pins on the regulator lever of the balance spring, which affected the oscillation rate of the balance wheel.
An accurate clock or watch was often called "well regulated".
Over time, the phrase became an idiom used to describe a state of being properly adjusted, or properly set up, or properly functioning, or balanced.
from 1818:
"True, Mean, or equal Time is measured by a well regulated clock, adjusted to go exactly 24 hours from noon to noon. Apparent time, is that time, as measured by a correct sun dial. The adjustment between equal and apparent time, is called the equation of time, or the difference of time, shown by a well regulated clock, and a good sun dial."
Brightoniensis. The Equation of Time. July 3, 1818. In The Gleaner's Portfolio, Sussex Press of Lewes.
In the above example, the phrase is not being used as an idiom. It is being used literally to mean well regulated.
The phrase "well regulated" most likely originated among clock and watch sellers and buyers of the 1700's.
18th century regulator clocks (pendulum clocks) were tuned for accuracy by adjusting the regulator nut on the pendulum which slightly changed the pendulum arm length which changed the rate at which the mechanism would operate (keep time).
18th century watches were tuned by adjusting the position of curb pins on the regulator lever of the balance spring, which affected the oscillation rate of the balance wheel.
An accurate clock or watch was often called "well regulated".
Over time, the phrase became an idiom used to describe a state of being properly adjusted, or properly set up, or properly functioning, or balanced.
from 1818:
"True, Mean, or equal Time is measured by a well regulated clock, adjusted to go exactly 24 hours from noon to noon. Apparent time, is that time, as measured by a correct sun dial. The adjustment between equal and apparent time, is called the equation of time, or the difference of time, shown by a well regulated clock, and a good sun dial."
Brightoniensis. The Equation of Time. July 3, 1818. In The Gleaner's Portfolio, Sussex Press of Lewes.
In the above example, the phrase is not being used as an idiom. It is being used literally to mean well regulated.
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Well oiled.
In the 19th century, "well oiled" was an idiom for drunk.
Today it is an idiom for "smooth and effective".
When your favorite team is playing like a well oiled machine, they are playing well, not playing like they are drunk.
The meaning of idioms changes over time.
In the 19th century, "well oiled" was an idiom for drunk.
Today it is an idiom for "smooth and effective".
When your favorite team is playing like a well oiled machine, they are playing well, not playing like they are drunk.
The meaning of idioms changes over time.
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Or, simply a well lubricated machine, properly or adequately lubricated to standards or specifications! 
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A while back, I went down the well regulated rabbit hole. My goal was to prove that "well regulated" in 2A meant properly functioning.
Here are the examples I found:
"The cheerfulness of a well regulated mind, springs from a good conscience and the favour of Heaven, and is bounded by temperance and reason."
Knox V. Elegant extracts: or, Useful and Entertaining Passages in Prose, p. 55. B. Law, et al, London, 1797.
"The mind cannot be idle, and when it is not occupied by subjects of a useful kind, it will find a resource in those which are frivolous or hurtful, -in mere visions waking dreams, or fictions, in which the mind wanders from scene, to scene unrestrained by reason, probability, or truth. No habit can be more opposed to a healthy condition of the mental powers; and none ought to be more carefully guarded against by every one who would cultivate the high acquirement of a well-regulated mind."
The Young Lady's Book of Piety: a Practical Manual of Christian Duties, p. 260. John Reid & Co, Glasgow, 1834.
" 'Has she a well-regulated mind?' Mr. Cole had asked, maliciously, for he had been hurt by his son's contempt for poor Julia." [where Julia was a character possessed of an ill-regulated mind]
Wylde, K. (Colvill, H.H.) An Ill-Regulated Mind, p.96. Henry Holt & Co, New York, 1885.
" 'Not tomorrow,' said poor old Dobbin. 'I have business.' He did not like to own that he had not as yet been to his parents' and his dear sister Anne - a remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Major."
Thackeray, WM. Vanity Fair: A Novel without a Hero, p. 411. Bradbury & Evans, London, 1848.
'Convinced that a degree is something that no well regulated person should be without, sundry "institutions" have even sold them for cash to suit applicants. Such a shop was the notorious "University of Philadelphia," and there was also a sham "University of Brooklyn" which also did a thriving business in diplomas.'
Church (ed). The Galaxy, vol. 16, issue 3, p.436. 1873.
"In every well regulated church, collections and subscriptions are made for the relief of poor members, for the support of the pastor, and for defraying the general expenses connected with maintaining the public worship of God."
Bane J. Reciprocal Duties, or A Well Regulated Church, p. 92. E.Silence, Aylsham, 1831.
"From a high window, just large enough to frame her face, looked out a Moorish woman with dark eyes of fascination and perhaps of sin; for no woman of a well-regulated harem will show her face to a man. If she was as handsome as she was painted, she was a dangerous person."
Warner CD. Aross Africa. The Atlantic Monthly, vol. 50, issue 298, p. 175. 1882.
"To give pecuniary aid to worthy and well-regulated persons, who have fallen into poverty from no fault of their own, but from the perversity of fate, may be a very proper and humane proceeding, but unfortunately they are those whose needs are least likely to become known to the kindly disposed among the rich; and who, were their wants known, would, in many cases, in the existing state of public sentiment, find it hard to come under pecuniary obligations without a feeling of humiliation."
W. M. Proper Uses of Wealth. Fraser's Magazine, vol. 12, p. 476. 1875.
"..we may add another [affectation] that is equally disgusting to persons of a chaste and well-regulated taste: and that is, the affectation of introducing scraps of plays in the very body of a sentence which treats of some grave or awful point of religion."
Milne's Sermons. The Monthly Review, or Literary Journal, p. 431. R. Griffiths, London, 1780.
"She had left her home, changed her name, and sought a marriage with him for the position his money would give her. This is the height and depth of her offence, as he understands it. It is an offence which should count for much among well-regulated people; but our Hannibal is not a well-regulated person, and with him it should indicate the importance of letters of recommendation on the part of young persons who apply for situations as wives in monied establishments."
Gilder (ed). Reviews. The Critic, vol. 9, issue 143, p. 147. 1886.
"In a well regulated place of justice, the court room is orderly and noiseless. The bench attends; or appears to do so. When it does not, the failure neither proceeds from indifference nor from impatience. There is much consultation before judgment; little conversation during debate."
Montagu, Basil quoting April 1830 Observations in the Edinburgh Review upon Bacon's Essay on Judicature. The Life of Francis Bacon. William Pickering of London; 1833.
"By definition, a virtuous act achieves an authentic or true moral good through the instrumentality of well regulated reason. In this way, virtue perfects a person by making, as Aristotle puts it, both an action and the one who performs it, good. Vice, on the other hand generates actions that are not in conformity with the rule of right reason, so that either through excess or by defect, all vicious actions instantiate a definite form of evil."
Cessario, R. The Virtues, Or The Examined Life, p. 118. Continuum, New York, 2002.
On sum, it's impossible to say that all of these examples absolutely do not infer "well governed" or "well controlled".
Here are the examples I found:
"The cheerfulness of a well regulated mind, springs from a good conscience and the favour of Heaven, and is bounded by temperance and reason."
Knox V. Elegant extracts: or, Useful and Entertaining Passages in Prose, p. 55. B. Law, et al, London, 1797.
"The mind cannot be idle, and when it is not occupied by subjects of a useful kind, it will find a resource in those which are frivolous or hurtful, -in mere visions waking dreams, or fictions, in which the mind wanders from scene, to scene unrestrained by reason, probability, or truth. No habit can be more opposed to a healthy condition of the mental powers; and none ought to be more carefully guarded against by every one who would cultivate the high acquirement of a well-regulated mind."
The Young Lady's Book of Piety: a Practical Manual of Christian Duties, p. 260. John Reid & Co, Glasgow, 1834.
" 'Has she a well-regulated mind?' Mr. Cole had asked, maliciously, for he had been hurt by his son's contempt for poor Julia." [where Julia was a character possessed of an ill-regulated mind]
Wylde, K. (Colvill, H.H.) An Ill-Regulated Mind, p.96. Henry Holt & Co, New York, 1885.
" 'Not tomorrow,' said poor old Dobbin. 'I have business.' He did not like to own that he had not as yet been to his parents' and his dear sister Anne - a remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Major."
Thackeray, WM. Vanity Fair: A Novel without a Hero, p. 411. Bradbury & Evans, London, 1848.
'Convinced that a degree is something that no well regulated person should be without, sundry "institutions" have even sold them for cash to suit applicants. Such a shop was the notorious "University of Philadelphia," and there was also a sham "University of Brooklyn" which also did a thriving business in diplomas.'
Church (ed). The Galaxy, vol. 16, issue 3, p.436. 1873.
"In every well regulated church, collections and subscriptions are made for the relief of poor members, for the support of the pastor, and for defraying the general expenses connected with maintaining the public worship of God."
Bane J. Reciprocal Duties, or A Well Regulated Church, p. 92. E.Silence, Aylsham, 1831.
"From a high window, just large enough to frame her face, looked out a Moorish woman with dark eyes of fascination and perhaps of sin; for no woman of a well-regulated harem will show her face to a man. If she was as handsome as she was painted, she was a dangerous person."
Warner CD. Aross Africa. The Atlantic Monthly, vol. 50, issue 298, p. 175. 1882.
"To give pecuniary aid to worthy and well-regulated persons, who have fallen into poverty from no fault of their own, but from the perversity of fate, may be a very proper and humane proceeding, but unfortunately they are those whose needs are least likely to become known to the kindly disposed among the rich; and who, were their wants known, would, in many cases, in the existing state of public sentiment, find it hard to come under pecuniary obligations without a feeling of humiliation."
W. M. Proper Uses of Wealth. Fraser's Magazine, vol. 12, p. 476. 1875.
"..we may add another [affectation] that is equally disgusting to persons of a chaste and well-regulated taste: and that is, the affectation of introducing scraps of plays in the very body of a sentence which treats of some grave or awful point of religion."
Milne's Sermons. The Monthly Review, or Literary Journal, p. 431. R. Griffiths, London, 1780.
"She had left her home, changed her name, and sought a marriage with him for the position his money would give her. This is the height and depth of her offence, as he understands it. It is an offence which should count for much among well-regulated people; but our Hannibal is not a well-regulated person, and with him it should indicate the importance of letters of recommendation on the part of young persons who apply for situations as wives in monied establishments."
Gilder (ed). Reviews. The Critic, vol. 9, issue 143, p. 147. 1886.
"In a well regulated place of justice, the court room is orderly and noiseless. The bench attends; or appears to do so. When it does not, the failure neither proceeds from indifference nor from impatience. There is much consultation before judgment; little conversation during debate."
Montagu, Basil quoting April 1830 Observations in the Edinburgh Review upon Bacon's Essay on Judicature. The Life of Francis Bacon. William Pickering of London; 1833.
"By definition, a virtuous act achieves an authentic or true moral good through the instrumentality of well regulated reason. In this way, virtue perfects a person by making, as Aristotle puts it, both an action and the one who performs it, good. Vice, on the other hand generates actions that are not in conformity with the rule of right reason, so that either through excess or by defect, all vicious actions instantiate a definite form of evil."
Cessario, R. The Virtues, Or The Examined Life, p. 118. Continuum, New York, 2002.
On sum, it's impossible to say that all of these examples absolutely do not infer "well governed" or "well controlled".
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Hamilton - Federalist 29:
"If a well-regulated militia be the most natural defense of a free country, it ought certainly to be under the regulation and at the disposal of that body which is constituted the guardian of the national security."
...
"To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss."
Context - Hamilton argues for limited federal control of the militia as established by the new Constitution. If the federal govt can command the aid of the militia when needed, then the need for a standing army is reduced or eliminated. But, if the federal govt cannot command the aid of the militia when needed, then a standing army is needed.
Question: Exactly what does Hamilton mean by well-regulated?
Properly functioning?
Or properly managed?
Prove your answer beyond any reasonable doubt.
Fortunately, it can't be proven conclusively either way. You can have whatever opinion you want, but a competent opponent will prevent you from conclusively winning that argument.
A new problem is introduced by playing the Federalist 29 card:
Leftists can argue that Hamilton believed that a real militia requires regular training, and since no one does that any more, there is no real militia, and therefore 2A is meaningless. blah blah blah.
This is the kind of problem that is created by continually bringing up and arguing points that don't matter (like "well regulated" and "militia").
It just muddy's the waters and creates new issues that distract from the only real issue that matters.
IMO.
"If a well-regulated militia be the most natural defense of a free country, it ought certainly to be under the regulation and at the disposal of that body which is constituted the guardian of the national security."
...
"To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss."
Context - Hamilton argues for limited federal control of the militia as established by the new Constitution. If the federal govt can command the aid of the militia when needed, then the need for a standing army is reduced or eliminated. But, if the federal govt cannot command the aid of the militia when needed, then a standing army is needed.
Question: Exactly what does Hamilton mean by well-regulated?
Properly functioning?
Or properly managed?
Prove your answer beyond any reasonable doubt.
Fortunately, it can't be proven conclusively either way. You can have whatever opinion you want, but a competent opponent will prevent you from conclusively winning that argument.
A new problem is introduced by playing the Federalist 29 card:
Leftists can argue that Hamilton believed that a real militia requires regular training, and since no one does that any more, there is no real militia, and therefore 2A is meaningless. blah blah blah.
This is the kind of problem that is created by continually bringing up and arguing points that don't matter (like "well regulated" and "militia").
It just muddy's the waters and creates new issues that distract from the only real issue that matters.
IMO.
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Last one:
Charles-Louis de Secondat, Baron de Montesquieu. De l'esprit des loix (The Spirit of the Laws). 1748, translated to English by Thomas Nugent in 1750.
Part 4, Book 21, Chapter 19:
Original French:
"Ses soudans furent les plus puissants princes de ces temps-là: on peut voir dans l'histoire, comment, avec une force constante et bien ménagée, ils arrêtèrent l'ardeur, la fougue et l'impétuosité des croisés."
Nugent's translation:
"The sultans of Egypt were the most powerful princes of those times. History informs us with what a constant and well regulated force they stopped the ardor, the fire, and the impetuosity of the crusades."
Important: the French language says "well managed force". Nugent translated it to "well regulated force".
As previously mentioned, this work was a, if not the, primary influence on the Constitution and its authors in the 1780's.
The crux: In 1750, Nugent used "well regulated" to mean "well managed".
in 1788, Hamilton used the words "under the regulation...of that body" (the federal govt) in a sentence directly discussing a well regulated militia.
Scholars have known of these resources for many decades.
The resources have never been assembled into a conclusive argument either way because there is simply no way to construct an infallible argument from them.
But it sure opens the door to a lot of distracting, time wasting, red-faced screaming matches.
Full disclosure: to my knowledge, Nugent uses the phrase "well regulated" eight times when translating the Baron. IMO, five of them are supportive of "properly functioning", the other three are supportive of "properly managed."
Sorry for the long posts and for contributing to the muddying of the waters.
My point: 2A arguments that rely on "militia" or "well regulated" are a dry hole, but can be quite dangerous if confronted by a well-informed opponent.
My advice (unsolicited) - stick with what works:
There is no way that the 1st US Congress intended to create any restriction on the pre-existing and commonly exercised citizen right to arms, and there is no way that the people or States would have ratified it if they did.
Therefore the words well-regulated militia cannot be a restriction. They exist as a contemporary acknowledgment of the merit of a non-government-controlled militia against a perceived or actual threat posed by a government-controlled standing army. But even that last sentence cannot be proved conclusively, so just stick with what works.
My first long post in this thread has my version of the "no way" argument.
Thx! Good thread!
Charles-Louis de Secondat, Baron de Montesquieu. De l'esprit des loix (The Spirit of the Laws). 1748, translated to English by Thomas Nugent in 1750.
Part 4, Book 21, Chapter 19:
Original French:
"Ses soudans furent les plus puissants princes de ces temps-là: on peut voir dans l'histoire, comment, avec une force constante et bien ménagée, ils arrêtèrent l'ardeur, la fougue et l'impétuosité des croisés."
Nugent's translation:
"The sultans of Egypt were the most powerful princes of those times. History informs us with what a constant and well regulated force they stopped the ardor, the fire, and the impetuosity of the crusades."
Important: the French language says "well managed force". Nugent translated it to "well regulated force".
As previously mentioned, this work was a, if not the, primary influence on the Constitution and its authors in the 1780's.
The crux: In 1750, Nugent used "well regulated" to mean "well managed".
in 1788, Hamilton used the words "under the regulation...of that body" (the federal govt) in a sentence directly discussing a well regulated militia.
Scholars have known of these resources for many decades.
The resources have never been assembled into a conclusive argument either way because there is simply no way to construct an infallible argument from them.
But it sure opens the door to a lot of distracting, time wasting, red-faced screaming matches.
Full disclosure: to my knowledge, Nugent uses the phrase "well regulated" eight times when translating the Baron. IMO, five of them are supportive of "properly functioning", the other three are supportive of "properly managed."
Sorry for the long posts and for contributing to the muddying of the waters.
My point: 2A arguments that rely on "militia" or "well regulated" are a dry hole, but can be quite dangerous if confronted by a well-informed opponent.
My advice (unsolicited) - stick with what works:
There is no way that the 1st US Congress intended to create any restriction on the pre-existing and commonly exercised citizen right to arms, and there is no way that the people or States would have ratified it if they did.
Therefore the words well-regulated militia cannot be a restriction. They exist as a contemporary acknowledgment of the merit of a non-government-controlled militia against a perceived or actual threat posed by a government-controlled standing army. But even that last sentence cannot be proved conclusively, so just stick with what works.
My first long post in this thread has my version of the "no way" argument.
Thx! Good thread!
Last Edited:
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Think about how well term limits would work the next time a gun control bill comes up and the Representative or Senator declines to vote for it because he is afraid of not getting reelected.
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That makes sense. Some would become more brazen if they were lame duck.
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If you really want to know what the history and law say about the 2nd Amendment then you are unlikely to find a better source of information than Stephen P. Halbrook. Halbrook wrote one of the most important briefs for D.C. v. Heller. He also successfully argued Printz v. U.S., an important states' right case.
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1) "The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected."
BINGO!! The phrase as regards the Militia has been well parsed above. It also applied to the functionality of any number of things. a "well regulated" timepiece was one that kept accurate time. A "well regulated" firearm was properly maintained and worked as well as practical given the limitations of period technology.
2) My suggestion for 2A in modern terms
"A competent and vigilant citizenry at arms is necessary to the security of a free state. Therefore, the Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms shall not be infringed."
"Free state" seems to be a double entendre, i.e.
The status of Liberty
The free sovereign polity
The underlying principle is to recognize the right/ethical duty of Free Americans to act individually and in concert to maintain liberty and the social order, and to guarantee that they have the means to do so.
3) Fudd/hunting vs, Militia
Today, it's represente as being about fighting guns as opposed to sporting guns. May I suggest that after coming from England where the wildlie belonged to the Crown and harvesting by the Peons was banned or severely restricted, subsistence hunting was important to Americans. However, it wasn't the motivation for specifically equating RKBA with the Militia in the prefatory clause. As recognized by and then ignored in Miller, the light of 2A protection was cast by militia applicability. Applicability to the militia refers to the firearm, not whether the person is a member of the select militia (i.e. the NG) That specifically means EBRs, and that's why they cause such fear in the people they're supposed to scare, i.e. those who would usurp our Unalienable Rights.
4) Is a scoped .30 cal. magazine fed bolt action rifle a sniper rifle or an elk rifle?
Anyone? Buehler?
According to VPC most common hunting rifles meet their definition of an "Intermediate Sniper rifle."
Here are the "reasonable" measures they want for those:
Bring heavy and intermediate sniper rifles under the control of the National Firearms Act.
Evaluate an import ban on sniper rifles.
Improve reporting and record-keeping requirements.
Use the civil justice system to hold manufacturers accountable.
Ban the sale of armor-piercing ammunition.
BINGO!! The phrase as regards the Militia has been well parsed above. It also applied to the functionality of any number of things. a "well regulated" timepiece was one that kept accurate time. A "well regulated" firearm was properly maintained and worked as well as practical given the limitations of period technology.
2) My suggestion for 2A in modern terms
"A competent and vigilant citizenry at arms is necessary to the security of a free state. Therefore, the Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms shall not be infringed."
"Free state" seems to be a double entendre, i.e.
The status of Liberty
The free sovereign polity
The underlying principle is to recognize the right/ethical duty of Free Americans to act individually and in concert to maintain liberty and the social order, and to guarantee that they have the means to do so.
3) Fudd/hunting vs, Militia
Today, it's represente as being about fighting guns as opposed to sporting guns. May I suggest that after coming from England where the wildlie belonged to the Crown and harvesting by the Peons was banned or severely restricted, subsistence hunting was important to Americans. However, it wasn't the motivation for specifically equating RKBA with the Militia in the prefatory clause. As recognized by and then ignored in Miller, the light of 2A protection was cast by militia applicability. Applicability to the militia refers to the firearm, not whether the person is a member of the select militia (i.e. the NG) That specifically means EBRs, and that's why they cause such fear in the people they're supposed to scare, i.e. those who would usurp our Unalienable Rights.
4) Is a scoped .30 cal. magazine fed bolt action rifle a sniper rifle or an elk rifle?
Anyone? Buehler?
According to VPC most common hunting rifles meet their definition of an "Intermediate Sniper rifle."
Here are the "reasonable" measures they want for those:
Bring heavy and intermediate sniper rifles under the control of the National Firearms Act.
Evaluate an import ban on sniper rifles.
Improve reporting and record-keeping requirements.
Use the civil justice system to hold manufacturers accountable.
Ban the sale of armor-piercing ammunition.
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If we consider what the Washington State Constitution says:
Article I, Section 24 of the Washington State Constitution states: "[t]he right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men."
Seems to simplify things for us Washington folks, as the language is a bit clearer as written.
Jeff
Article I, Section 24 of the Washington State Constitution states: "[t]he right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men."
Seems to simplify things for us Washington folks, as the language is a bit clearer as written.
Jeff
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The term "well regulated", meant to be put in good order, to be put under regulation, to make it (militia organization) regular.
In other words, the members of the militia should show up for duty dressed alike. They should show up bearing the same or similar equipment. Their weapons should be of the same caliber. Drill, disposition, deployment, and employment should be by published regulation and understood by all militia members. Discipline should be enforced in a uniform, "regular" manner among all members, etc. Ranks and pay grades should be regular and understood by all.
So then, once the term "well regulated" is understood, the term "Militia" must then be defined. We should look at the US Supreme Court's words in U.S. v. Miller from 1939:
"The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. 'A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.' And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time." (of the kind in common use... don't show up with a blunderbuss who your mates show up with rifled muskets)
and:
" 'In all the colonies, as in England, the militia system was based on the principle of the assize of arms. This implied the general obligation of all adult male inhabitants to possess arms, and, with certain exceptions, to [307 U.S. 174, 180] cooperate in the work of defence.' 'The possession of arms also implied the possession of ammunition, and the authorities paid quite as much attention to the latter as to the former.' 'A year later (1632) it was ordered that any single man who had not furnished himself with arms might be put out to service, and this became a permanent part of the legislation of the colony (Massachusetts).'"
Note here, the inhabitants had the "obligation" of possessing arms. An unarmed man was, and is today, useless to his neighbors.
So, militiamen were (are) required to show up for duty bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use. Justice Scalia, in the Heller arguments, even queried the Solicitor General whether or not that meant the M-16 today, and he immediately stated that they were not there to argue that point. Scalia replied something like "Thats what I thought you would say..."
Anyone who has served in the military understands what is meant by "well regulated". It means, "to be put in good order, to be made regular".
It DOES NOT mean and CANNOT mean "prevent, deny, disparage..."
OK, off my soap box.
In other words, the members of the militia should show up for duty dressed alike. They should show up bearing the same or similar equipment. Their weapons should be of the same caliber. Drill, disposition, deployment, and employment should be by published regulation and understood by all militia members. Discipline should be enforced in a uniform, "regular" manner among all members, etc. Ranks and pay grades should be regular and understood by all.
So then, once the term "well regulated" is understood, the term "Militia" must then be defined. We should look at the US Supreme Court's words in U.S. v. Miller from 1939:
"The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. 'A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.' And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time." (of the kind in common use... don't show up with a blunderbuss who your mates show up with rifled muskets)
and:
" 'In all the colonies, as in England, the militia system was based on the principle of the assize of arms. This implied the general obligation of all adult male inhabitants to possess arms, and, with certain exceptions, to [307 U.S. 174, 180] cooperate in the work of defence.' 'The possession of arms also implied the possession of ammunition, and the authorities paid quite as much attention to the latter as to the former.' 'A year later (1632) it was ordered that any single man who had not furnished himself with arms might be put out to service, and this became a permanent part of the legislation of the colony (Massachusetts).'"
Note here, the inhabitants had the "obligation" of possessing arms. An unarmed man was, and is today, useless to his neighbors.
So, militiamen were (are) required to show up for duty bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use. Justice Scalia, in the Heller arguments, even queried the Solicitor General whether or not that meant the M-16 today, and he immediately stated that they were not there to argue that point. Scalia replied something like "Thats what I thought you would say..."
Anyone who has served in the military understands what is meant by "well regulated". It means, "to be put in good order, to be made regular".
It DOES NOT mean and CANNOT mean "prevent, deny, disparage..."
OK, off my soap box.
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Revjen said:
" "A competent and vigilant citizenry at arms is necessary to the security of a free state. Therefore, the Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms shall not be infringed.""
Well said, Sir!
By the way, you also know me as Longbow.
" "A competent and vigilant citizenry at arms is necessary to the security of a free state. Therefore, the Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms shall not be infringed.""
Well said, Sir!
By the way, you also know me as Longbow.
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Let's switch some words around
"A well balanced breakfast, being necessary to the start of a good day, the right of the people to keep and bear spoons shall not be infringed."
So who has the right to keep a spoon? The breakfast or the people?
It is also important to remember that the first ten Amendments are inalienable rights; they exist for the people even in the absence of government.
If alone on an island you can say what you will and worship what you please; you can defend yourself as you see fit, and your privacy is secure
The Bill of Rights doesn't grant rights to the people, it defines rights that the government must protect (if they do or not is a different thread)
"A well balanced breakfast, being necessary to the start of a good day, the right of the people to keep and bear spoons shall not be infringed."
So who has the right to keep a spoon? The breakfast or the people?
It is also important to remember that the first ten Amendments are inalienable rights; they exist for the people even in the absence of government.
If alone on an island you can say what you will and worship what you please; you can defend yourself as you see fit, and your privacy is secure
The Bill of Rights doesn't grant rights to the people, it defines rights that the government must protect (if they do or not is a different thread)
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"The Bill of Rights doesn't grant rights to the people, it defines rights that the government must protect" (if they do or not is a different thread)
How about "guarantees rights"!
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I joke of course....but don't count on anyone but yourself to guarantee rights
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