Seattle shooting: What would you have done?

[Father of four]

Without being there to see what actually happened in real time it is hard to say. But if you were standing there and someone you ordered to drop the gun raised it at you what would you do? would you try to make it to cover not knowing if you or one of your partners would make it? Would the swift movement to cover startle the person and scare him into firing? would you want to go home after your shift and hug your children or end up in ICU or the morgue? All these and more thoughts running threw your mind in a split second. It is easy to judge others when there is very little chance you will ever be put in that situation.

I agree with what you posted.

I do not however believe what the cops said had happened. I have lost my trust in them.

 

[hermannr]

Knowing the job is dangerous has nothing to do with a persons right to protect themselves. So what if they knew the job was dangerous, does that mean they should be more willing to accept being critically injured or killed? I would say not. Whether or not you go into a situation under the pretense of injury or death, you have a right and a duty to protect yourself.

Here Read every link: <broken link removed>

Now that you have read everything publically available, do you think this was a case of Deputy Hirzel protecting himself (self defence?) or do you think this was Deputy Hirzel upset because he was not being obeyed?

I will point some this out for you to look for. Deputy Hirzel is parked in the parking lot of a closed business that has had burglary problems...in an UNMARKED car. Scott Creech is the business owner, who lives next door to his business.

Scott Creech is awakened by something (the unmarked car in his business parking lot) picks up his revolver, puts it in his waist band and goes out to investigate. Mrs. Creech at the same time calls 911.

Scott Creech is shot...(his revolver still in his waist band). Deputy Hirzel states he shot Creech after Creech would not put down his gun...(still in Creech's waist band?) Deputy Hirzel even stated that Creech NEVER pointed his revolver at the Deputy.

Creech's Crime? He did not do what Hirzel told him to do...also called "Contempt of Cop". Charged, convicted and executed for a law that is not on any state's law book...in minutes, no jury. Remember, This is Creech's own private property, and Hirzel is not even an invited guest, 911 was called AFTER Hirzil arrives and parks an UNMARKED Sheriff's car...as far as Creech is concerned, when he walks out there Hirzel could very likely be the burglar that has been causng Creech's losses.

Now, If Deputy Hirzel was joe citizen...and not a Sheriff's Deputy...do you think he would have been charged?

 

[coop44]

Knowing the job is dangerous should not give them the right to escalate every situation to the point of murder.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

This situation reminds me much of the increasingly overbearing attitude of the Brits and their enforcers the Redcoats in the 1770s. We all should know what happened on April 19th, 1775

 

[mjbskwim]

Very discouraging to see some pretty broad brush painting here based on a brief article. Might be nice to let an investigation play out and if need be the cops get their day in court. Or do you fellas not believe the cops deserve their chance to tell their side of the story to an investigating body?

That's funny stuff right there.
Investigation of police ,by the police,who,BTW want this to just go away so they don't have to pay out for any recklessness.
Wait for the police to say it was fully justified? Like they always do?
Wait for the cops to give their scripted version of what happened?

On the other hand,the family should have absolutely no grounds for anything,since they only partially disarmed their dad,knowing he was delusional. Why did they only take most of the guns?
Did they believe he WAS in fact,a danger if he had guns? (20-20 hindsight now,huh?)
IF the LEO's story is true,it was justifiable.

What would I have done? Not gone right to the door to test the guy.
My mom had alziemer's and couldn't tell which kid was talking to her.I'm not testing someone I don't know,if he knows help from harm.
But I might try to talk the guy out of the gun,from around a corner.

 

[chopped&bobbedburb]

It's all pretty simple ! The Higher ups of Law enforcement want the sheeple to obey so they use their minions ( cops ) to threaten , Harrass , False arrest and even murder if they can get away with it . They are quick with the gun cause they know whatever happens that they will be backed by their unions and higher ups . Even IF a cop is found guilty of a crime and they fire that officer THE PEOPLE are still scared OF the next cop waiting to pull their gun and kill them .

Not saying that all cops are this way or even all agencies follow this path BUT it sometimes looks like the bigger cities seem to have this problem and the city police & county sherriffs in smaller communities don't .

It takes a pretty sick person to shoot and kill an old man . He could have vision issues , hearing issues and even mental issues . Sad for the family though .

 

[Kevatc]

Someone said they cops should have attempted a less aggressive tactic in disarming the man. Like backing off and having someone familiar intervene. On that account I have a few things to say. If the man was suffering from dementia and/or Alzheimers who's to say he would have had a stable enough mind to realize he was speaking to someone he knew. It is to my understanding that dementia and Alzheimers can put a person in a state of mass confusion and disorientation. Sending in his family or friends to attempt a peaceful disarm would have been a grossly negligent call on the cops part, easily putting them in harms way. The cops vocal command for the man to put down the gun WAS the attempt at peaceful disarm. The man did not comply, and then the situation was escalated when he raised the gun. Cops are not bloodthirsty senior citizen killers, but when someone points a gun at you it is a life saving reaction to engage with equal threat of force. I'm sure they would have preferred to back away, but at that point backing away may not have been a viable option, as we know even the fastest backer-awayers cannot back away faster than a bullet can travel.

But I haven't read the case details so who knows. Maybe they were brainless. As people are, brainlessness tends to happen.

I know many cops. and none of them joined the force because they felt the need to blast people up.

Now there is an intelligent response. My son-in-law is an intelligent, calm, problem-solving first kind of guy. The VERY LAST THING he wants to do is kill another human being. He would much rather find a way to come to a non-violent answer to a difficult situation. But good grief cop-blammers ...... if someone has a gun and you get it pointed at you .... Seriously, sometimes I just want to puke at the "cops were at fault" mentality without you being there. I think there are a lot of keyboard commandos who would turn into britch pooper commandos in these types of situations.

 

[Father of four]

Seriously, sometimes I just want to puke at the "cops are never at fault" mentality without you being there.

 

[Father of four]

I can not understand the mentality of some people that would assume that anything the Leo's say anymore would be the truth. There are hours and hours of LEOS's being dishonest in videos and LEOS's proven to be dishonest in many court cases. LEO's themselves have proven by their actions that they can not be trusted. There are also many, many internal investigation that many, many of us non LEO civilians believe to have been dishonestly ruled by the LEOS's peers. Almost always ruling that the LEOS's actions were justified. There are also many, many of us non LEO civilians that believe there has been a multiple of cover ups by LEO's, DA's and Judges in our "Justice" system and they have also often used double standards and given outright leniency to the LEO's when it has been proven the LEOS have acted illegally.

I can not understand the mentality that some people would still assume that our "Legal" system is not broken and that it does not need to be fixed. Anyone can start their own lengthy investigation by just googleing some words like corruption, cover up, double standdards, brutality, shooting, etc... and see who mostly comes up.

The broad brush is being used.

 

[Father of four]

Here is just an example..... <broken link removed>

http://northeastportland.katu.com/news/news/456826-police-family-aaron-campbell-settle-lawsuit-12-m

Interesting read...http://images.bimedia.net/documents/Campbell+Press+Release.pdf

"And finally as a mother, I regrettably do not believe my living sons are safe. That
bond of community trust has been broken. I cannot say to them that if there is a
mental health crisis ... "call the police"."

 

[Father of four]

AND!!!!!!! Man Dies in Police Raid on Wrong House - ABC News

"A 61-year-old man was shot to death by

police while his wife was handcuffed in another room during a drug

raid on the wrong house.

Police admitted their mistake, saying faulty information from a drug informant contributed to the death of John Adams Wednesday night. They intended to raid the home next door.

The two officers, 25-year-old Kyle Shedran and 24-year-old Greg Day, were placed on administrative leave with pay.

"They need to get rid of those men, boys with toys," said Adams' 70-year-old widow, Loraine. "

 

[slimmer13]

What is very discouraging is the cop will never see a courtroom because of this...that is why we tend to be very sceptical of anything like this.

Consider: A deaf woman calls 911 because of some in her house. She runs out off the house when the police come and they taze HER and put her in the slammer for 3 days...Why? because she would not lie dow on teh ground when they told her to... Da, She was deaf...AND THEY WERE TOLD THAT! what happened to them? Nothing?

Or how about Scott Cheech? He was shot and killed ON HIS OWN PROPERTY by deputy Hirzel. His crime? He would nopt drop his gun for some screeming idiot..Hirsel even said Creeck never pointed the gun at him? What happened to Hirzel? He went on vacation and then voluntarily resigned so he could move back to Florida.

Or how about Karl Thompson,,, he beat an unarmed mentally disabled man to death...it is now 6 years later...5 years before a FEDERAL jury convicted him of use of excessive force (Spokane DA would not prosecute...and he STILL IS NOT IN PRISON! He will be sentenced in NOV...a FULL 6 YEARS. NOT only that, but over 40 Spokane police officers saluted him when he was CONVICTED to show their support fopr their brother officer.

Or how about Ian Birk, Shot Williams in the BACK. Is he in jail? NO...did he even go to trial???No

What was the major crime all of the above committed? Contempt of Cop.

Why should a cop NOT shoot...he gets a free paid vacation, if he does go to trial his union pays the lawyers, and the probability that he will spied jail time is neglegable. There is NO incentive for a cop NOT TO SHOOT. Then you get the ones that are on an ego trip and you see what happens.

Are their good cops...you bet. I know some of them. They are not bullies, they are not on ego trips, and they do not think that pulling their weapon at the drop of a hat and executing someone that is not a threat is the first option. Panic can be deadly, and bullies that connot control the object of their bullying tend to panic.

You forgot officer Jay Olsen.

Illegally carrying while off duty at a bar drinking and finds Shonto Pete breaking into his truck, he chases him down and shoots him in the BACK of the head. These are just Spokane examples.

Spokane police officer and victim of off-duty shooting arrested - KHQ Right Now - News and Weather for Spokane and North Idaho |

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I had a cop once tell me that cops are the closest we have to criminals without having a record.. not all but some. They say it only takes one bad apple to spoil a barrel full

 

[MarkAd]

Well a few things are missing.
Why didn't they take cover behind thier vehicles
Why didn't police use calm commanding voices to direct him to put down his gun.
Why did they back off and call SWAT
The old guy was known to have issues, even the cops were aware of it, They should havve adjusted their tactis accordingly.


I believe the police are wrong in this case. To many sheeple think the cops are somehow superior and must make instant life and death dicisions ever time the are on a call. Sometimes they do. This time was not such a case.

I know cops personally and thank god they are not stupid pigs like so many cops I have interacted with.

And it does only take one apple to spoil a whole barrel. And that good sirs and ladies is fact.

 

[rumblebee1967]

It is a tragedy but I believe the po;ice acted correctly if the facts are as they reported. No one can know for sure what a person will do when they point a gun at you. If someone points a gun at me and I am ready to retaliate I would. You do not have time to hide from a bullet nor make more than snap decisions based on what you see. In this case a gun pointed at you. I feel sorrow that the family lost a loved one in this manner, but they should have removed all of the guns from the house and protected him from himself better.

 

[michaels]

Its not that one bad Apple is spoiling the bunch.

The barrel's rotten.

Forget internal investigations.

Have PEOPLE FROM THE COMMUNITY doing these investigations.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Its not that one bad Apple is spoiling the bunch.

The barrel's rotten.

Forget internal investigations.

Have PEOPLE FROM THE COMMUNITY doing these investigations.

I have known good cops who supported the real BORs and wanted to be peace officers and not "law enforcement".. but they were in rural depts. I wholeheartedly agree with REAL random commissions of reputable, qualified citizens for these cases

Cops are civilians and should be judged by civilians

 

[chopped&bobbedburb]

People can have some pretty strong feeling eith way about Law enforcement officers and you really can't change the hearts or minds of people . The LEO's are not their for your protection THEY are there to enforce the law or take reports after the crimes have been commited . They are a glorified report taker / revenue generator .Do not ever think for once that a cop has your best interest in mind . You and only you are responceable for your safety and protection .

With all of the weapons , Body armor , tanks and drones one would wonder Just what are these Leo's protecting ?

I believe that at some point some of those who go into law enforcement think they can make a difference but what ever state , county or city agency they sign up with THOSE in charge set the agenda and tone of how their department conducts Business and what laws they will have a priority for . You can have all the intentions of doing the JOB but when the bosses tell you how , what and when you will do your job you are going to do it to keep that pay check comming in and try to make it to your 20 year mark . There is ALOT of politics in law enforcement . I have had family in State, city and county Law enforcement and a few friends currently in it .

As for the old guy that was killed , it wasn't right and the whole thing is a glaring picture of how certain Law enforcement agencies just don't have the proper training for their officers . Society is so jaded with the kill culture it's crept it's way into our justice system where human life really isn't valued . Maybe when people start shooting back at these bad cops in mass amounts the justice system and those in law enforcement who call themselves good will police their own . I know in my grandfathers day of being a state policeman for 30+ years that crooked cops got a serious beat down from their brothers in blue and sent out the door OR worse .

 

[lionhrt]

Seriously, sometimes I just want to puke at the "cops are never at fault" mentality without you being there.

Never said they are never at fault. I just want the facts before I jump to conclutions unlike others that think every cop is on the take or just out to kill people legally most of these people are the rumor inflating gossip mongers. Yes there are a lot of cops that shouldn`t be cops and that will never change but since I don`t have a magic foil hat to tell me something happened when I was not there I am not going to start telling people what happened or why people did or what they were thinking when I don`t know. I prefer not to talk out of my *** like others.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Or you could have the honor to walk away from an evil task. Many have