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Seattle shooting: What would you have done?

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by Dave Workman, Sep 25, 2012.

  1. Dave Workman

    Dave Workman Western Washington Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Seattle police fatally shot a 77-year-old man who was standing in the doorway of his home and – after being told several times to drop his gun – raised the pistol toward the cops…

    KVI morning talk jock John Carlson – now enjoying his third week back on the air since that station wisely returned to its conservative talk format – was discussing this case Tuesday.


    Seattle shooting: What would you have done? - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com
     
  2. Trailboss

    Trailboss Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    Unless someone taped the event going down, I don't accept the police version. It MAY have happened as they state, but it may NOT have. Police departments and their officers have shown themselves to be fabricators and liars to put themselves in a favorable light. Not every cop is dishonest, but enough are that as a whole they cannot be trusted any longer.

    Sorry, I went off on a bunny trail from where you started. I would have taken cover and waited a bit for the old gent to cool down. Why do these officers feel the need to escalate immediately? It's not like they don't like the overtime if the situation drags on. Heck, look at the occupy movement, cops were willing to watch and do nothing.
     
  3. michaels

    michaels oregon Active Member

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    Dave, I can tell you the difference between someone crashing into your house yelling that they will kill you, and someone with dementia standing in their doorway pointing their gun at you.

    But, like they say, if I had to explain, you wouldn't understand.

    Keep writing!

    I'm a huge fan.
     
  4. hermannr

    hermannr Okanogan Highlands Well-Known Member

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    Hej Dave!

    The difference is the civilian used restraint, and did not shoot the intruder as soon as he encountered him.

    Personally, I think this sounds more like a "Contempt of Cop" issue than a danger issue for the cops. I have delt with both Altsheimers and dementia, and yes, I agree, the children probably should have removed all of the weapons, for the old boy's safety...but I would also bet the "standard" (these days) responce of the police only confused him.

    Reminds me of the murder of Scott Creech in Spokane by Deputy Brian Hirzel back in 2010. That was definately a CoC execution in my book. link if you forgot....and Hirzel got away with just resigning,,,,Sheriff Posts Creach Shooting Documents Online | Crime | Spokane Valley News
     
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  5. Misterbill

    Misterbill Yakima County, Washington New Member

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    Funny, here, in Yakima County we have a record number of officer involved shootings and not ONE of them was even remotely questionable.

    Why is it that other agencies and departments seem to resort to the gun damn near immediately? No one wants to see a cop getting shot unnecessarily. But it IS a dangerous job sometimes. That's what you sign up for.

    Seems to me like the gun is pu;;ed a lot more often than it was years past. And I don't see he number of officer involved fatalities rising in correspondence with the shootings. Ask Jose Guerena.
     
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  6. Dave Workman

    Dave Workman Western Washington Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Very kind of you. Don't forget to click the "like" button.
     
  7. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    I see this as not more than reckless cold blooded murder of an old man

    His relatives should have completely disarmed him, however
     
  8. Dave Workman

    Dave Workman Western Washington Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Interesting observation, Blitz.
     
  9. Burt Gummer

    Burt Gummer Portland Completely Out of Ammo

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    Police just had a hard on to kill, that is all.

    The humane thing to do would have been to back off, call a relative in to calm the situation and disarm him. But that is no fun. Rather just blast away as usual.
     
  10. Kevatc

    Kevatc Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Very discouraging to see some pretty broad brush painting here based on a brief article. Might be nice to let an investigation play out and if need be the cops get their day in court. Or do you fellas not believe the cops deserve their chance to tell their side of the story to an investigating body?
     
  11. Spad

    Spad Kennewick,WA, the desert side Active Member

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    Lets see,standing with a gun,told to drop the gun,raises the gun, gosh, what would he do next,fire the gun, twirl it on his finger, say look at my gun, pretty gun...If I was a cop,would shoot him. Don't see what the problem is. Let all the naysayers tell us what they would do, probably have something to with the laundering of their trousers..Spad
     
  12. Muddslinger12

    Muddslinger12 Vancouver Active Member

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    Very sad my late grandpa had dementia as well was always asking for his gun we were all smart enough NOT to give it to him. Also old ppl shouldnt be able to drive either. Once you hit a certain age or number of meds required daily your family should step in and help you out so you dont need to drive. Maybe I should have been born in a differant time period tho... Maybe Im just a speed demon but I see so many old ppl unable to maintain the speed limit or turn without completly stopping makes me more worried to be on the road somedays....
     
  13. ZigZagZeke

    ZigZagZeke Eugene Silver Supporter Silver Supporter 2015 Volunteer

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    Kev, when's the last time the Portland area police were not judged to have been justified in a shooting? Remember the naked guy who refused to come down from the top of the police car? How was that justified? Was he gonna pull an AK out of his butt? It's pretty hard under the circumstances not to use a broad brush.
     
  14. Northwest

    Northwest Seattle New Member

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    Someone said they cops should have attempted a less aggressive tactic in disarming the man. Like backing off and having someone familiar intervene. On that account I have a few things to say. If the man was suffering from dementia and/or Alzheimers who's to say he would have had a stable enough mind to realize he was speaking to someone he knew. It is to my understanding that dementia and Alzheimers can put a person in a state of mass confusion and disorientation. Sending in his family or friends to attempt a peaceful disarm would have been a grossly negligent call on the cops part, easily putting them in harms way. The cops vocal command for the man to put down the gun WAS the attempt at peaceful disarm. The man did not comply, and then the situation was escalated when he raised the gun. Cops are not bloodthirsty senior citizen killers, but when someone points a gun at you it is a life saving reaction to engage with equal threat of force. I'm sure they would have preferred to back away, but at that point backing away may not have been a viable option, as we know even the fastest backer-awayers cannot back away faster than a bullet can travel.

    But I haven't read the case details so who knows. Maybe they were brainless. As people are, brainlessness tends to happen.

    I know many cops. and none of them joined the force because they felt the need to blast people up.
     
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  15. lionhrt

    lionhrt Hamilton New Member

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    Without being there to see what actually happened in real time it is hard to say. But if you were standing there and someone you ordered to drop the gun raised it at you what would you do? would you try to make it to cover not knowing if you or one of your partners would make it? Would the swift movement to cover startle the person and scare him into firing? would you want to go home after your shift and hug your children or end up in ICU or the morgue? All these and more thoughts running threw your mind in a split second. It is easy to judge others when there is very little chance you will ever be put in that situation.
     
  16. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    They nearly always are given a free pass. Look at Ruby Ridge and Waco as glaring federal examples. I do not trust "internal investigations"...
     
  17. Redcap

    Redcap Lewis County, WA Well-Known Member

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    Damn right.
     
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  18. hermannr

    hermannr Okanogan Highlands Well-Known Member

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    What is very discouraging is the cop will never see a courtroom because of this...that is why we tend to be very sceptical of anything like this.

    Consider: A deaf woman calls 911 because of some in her house. She runs out off the house when the police come and they taze HER and put her in the slammer for 3 days...Why? because she would not lie dow on teh ground when they told her to... Da, She was deaf...AND THEY WERE TOLD THAT! what happened to them? Nothing?

    Or how about Scott Cheech? He was shot and killed ON HIS OWN PROPERTY by deputy Hirzel. His crime? He would nopt drop his gun for some screeming idiot..Hirsel even said Creeck never pointed the gun at him? What happened to Hirzel? He went on vacation and then voluntarily resigned so he could move back to Florida.

    Or how about Karl Thompson,,, he beat an unarmed mentally disabled man to death...it is now 6 years later...5 years before a FEDERAL jury convicted him of use of excessive force (Spokane DA would not prosecute...and he STILL IS NOT IN PRISON! He will be sentenced in NOV...a FULL 6 YEARS. NOT only that, but over 40 Spokane police officers saluted him when he was CONVICTED to show their support fopr their brother officer.

    Or how about Ian Birk, Shot Williams in the BACK. Is he in jail? NO...did he even go to trial???No

    What was the major crime all of the above committed? Contempt of Cop.

    Why should a cop NOT shoot...he gets a free paid vacation, if he does go to trial his union pays the lawyers, and the probability that he will spied jail time is neglegable. There is NO incentive for a cop NOT TO SHOOT. Then you get the ones that are on an ego trip and you see what happens.

    Are their good cops...you bet. I know some of them. They are not bullies, they are not on ego trips, and they do not think that pulling their weapon at the drop of a hat and executing someone that is not a threat is the first option. Panic can be deadly, and bullies that connot control the object of their bullying tend to panic.
     
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  19. coop44

    coop44 Tacoma ,WA Well-Known Member

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    Paranoia has become so ingrained into the law enforcement training method, it's a wonder they don't have more shootings. When was the last time an officer went to jail for killing some one? When I hear words like "exempt" come out of their mouths I cringe, that attitude (in their minds) gives them carte blanche to do whatever they wish, and expect no consequences.

    Sure the job is dangerous, but as Fred said to Super Chicken, "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it!"

    Edit: Just thinking, the only other people in our society who think that they are exempt from laws, social mores and consequences are usually labeled "Sociopath", give that some thought.
     
  20. Northwest

    Northwest Seattle New Member

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    Knowing the job is dangerous has nothing to do with a persons right to protect themselves. So what if they knew the job was dangerous, does that mean they should be more willing to accept being critically injured or killed? I would say not. Whether or not you go into a situation under the pretense of injury or death, you have a right and a duty to protect yourself.
     
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