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Does afg on pistol make AOW? More silliness I know...
How well does the 7.5" cycle? I've heard 11.5 was shortest that would reliably work, but that was years ago and things change.
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SBR in WA
- Thread Starter gunjunky
- Start date
Does afg on pistol make AOW? More silliness I know...
How well does the 7.5" cycle? I've heard 11.5 was shortest that would reliably work, but that was years ago and things change.
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The only FTF I have ever had was the first time I used a suppressor and didn't have the gas switch in the right position. Other than that, I have several thousand rounds through my 7.5 inch barrel with NO issues.
The AFG doesn't make it an AOW. The respective law speaks to "Vertical Forward Grip" and since they used the word "Vertical" it creates a definition of sorts. It would be difficult to call an AFG "Vertical" So a 45 degree AFG is fine. I am looking at switching to the Ergo angled grip as a friend got one and it is really nice.
Relevant info from NFA Branch: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#vertical-fore-grip
I get that some people will say "well, I wouldn't want to get caught by an LEO or a rogue ATF agent". I get that and you should do what makes you feel good. Your RO at your range can ask you for your tax stamps or letter proving the AFG and Sig Brace don't make your pistol a rifle or an AOW because you agreed to that inspection when you signed up. However, a random LEO at the range has no authority to do so. Maybe any Fed could decide to do it, but again, why would they do that unless you were involved in some jackassery? I have found most LEO's don't care as long as you aren't being an idiot.
Again, my opinion based on what I have read. Since I know my proximity to jackassery is pretty much zero, I don't panic as much. To the previous poster about a friend who got jammed up, there is a huge difference between having unregistered full auto sears and arguing the details between a pistol and a rifle and whether a lower had ever had a rifle buffer on it. Sorry, they aren't a real equivalence. Full auto sears have been regulated since 1934 very tightly.
STAC
The AFG doesn't make it an AOW. The respective law speaks to "Vertical Forward Grip" and since they used the word "Vertical" it creates a definition of sorts. It would be difficult to call an AFG "Vertical" So a 45 degree AFG is fine. I am looking at switching to the Ergo angled grip as a friend got one and it is really nice.
Relevant info from NFA Branch: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#vertical-fore-grip
I get that some people will say "well, I wouldn't want to get caught by an LEO or a rogue ATF agent". I get that and you should do what makes you feel good. Your RO at your range can ask you for your tax stamps or letter proving the AFG and Sig Brace don't make your pistol a rifle or an AOW because you agreed to that inspection when you signed up. However, a random LEO at the range has no authority to do so. Maybe any Fed could decide to do it, but again, why would they do that unless you were involved in some jackassery? I have found most LEO's don't care as long as you aren't being an idiot.
Again, my opinion based on what I have read. Since I know my proximity to jackassery is pretty much zero, I don't panic as much. To the previous poster about a friend who got jammed up, there is a huge difference between having unregistered full auto sears and arguing the details between a pistol and a rifle and whether a lower had ever had a rifle buffer on it. Sorry, they aren't a real equivalence. Full auto sears have been regulated since 1934 very tightly.
STAC
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Trying to not get too far off topic, but since the Sig arm brace was brought up hopefully this will be of interest...
Shockwave Technologies is going through the approval process for another arm stabilizer that works by being held against the side of your arm, which can then be fastened to your arm with your sling, rather than buy going around your arm and being held in place by velcro. If approved, it has a nicer appearance (to me), and will have a lower price point than the Sig ($50 vs. $150).
There are some pictures on their website on an AR pistol
http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?p=1724
As well as on a Glock pistol
<broken link removed>
The Glock version is shown using a velcro strap rather than a sling to stabilize against your arm.
Shockwave Technologies is going through the approval process for another arm stabilizer that works by being held against the side of your arm, which can then be fastened to your arm with your sling, rather than buy going around your arm and being held in place by velcro. If approved, it has a nicer appearance (to me), and will have a lower price point than the Sig ($50 vs. $150).
There are some pictures on their website on an AR pistol
http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?p=1724
As well as on a Glock pistol
<broken link removed>
The Glock version is shown using a velcro strap rather than a sling to stabilize against your arm.
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I disagree. He was not in possession of the parts, nor where the parts in the gun. It is legal to own all the parts the "other guy" had in his possession just not legal to assemble them into a automatic weapon which they where not.
I cant see how this is any different that having all the parts in your possession to assemble a SBR that is not a SBR but still being charged with possession of a SBR
Basically what happened to the guy was they came after him on some totally fraudulent intent to manufacture a bomb/domestic terrorist charges ( charges that were completely untrue and had no basis in reality, His arrest was based on a drawing he made in a sketch book of a gate latch which the feds said looked like a pressure switch for a bomb, That and copies of the poor mans James Bond and Anarchist cookbook. The books where found by a cleaning service at his prior residence after it was foreclosed on and she called the cops because of the books who called the feds. There had been a bombing a few towns away and they figured since they found these books this must be there guy. My friend said the books where not even his (which is why they where left behind) that a friend of his had gave him a box of random hand-me-down books in a box and he had never even looked in there to see what they where)
After they had him in custody it became apparent there was no actual crime committed but during the course of the investigation they found someone who said 10 years ago he had machine guns. They found the guy who had the guns, which were not machine guns but AR 15's with semi auto trigger groups. However the guy had "legal" drop in auto sears and M-16 bolt carriers and trigger groups which all had come from my friend when he sold him the guns (not assembled as autos, just all the parts he had) The FBI and ATF seized all the parts, assembled them into a illegal firearm to show it "could have" been done and charged him. They agreed to drop the untrue charges if he copped to the gun charges, at this point he had been in the FED system for 6 months and figured since he actually did do what they said he did (own this pile of parts 10 years ago) the best thing to do was own up to it. (he had no money, no lawyer)
My point is you could buy a second hand receiver that the seller told you had never been assembled into a rifle when in fact the paperwork showed it transferred as a rifle or there was some documentation that showed otherwise and if they wanted to cause you all sorts of grief.
I am sure it sounds like my buddy was involved in some jackassery but if you knew him you would think different. He is an incredibly smart and gifted artist who happens to be a practicing Buddhist. There are thousands of good guys out there who have done the same thing or worse at some point.
He got railroaded by the system and you may think it couldn't happen to you but I don't want to take any chances
I cant see how this is any different that having all the parts in your possession to assemble a SBR that is not a SBR but still being charged with possession of a SBR
Basically what happened to the guy was they came after him on some totally fraudulent intent to manufacture a bomb/domestic terrorist charges ( charges that were completely untrue and had no basis in reality, His arrest was based on a drawing he made in a sketch book of a gate latch which the feds said looked like a pressure switch for a bomb, That and copies of the poor mans James Bond and Anarchist cookbook. The books where found by a cleaning service at his prior residence after it was foreclosed on and she called the cops because of the books who called the feds. There had been a bombing a few towns away and they figured since they found these books this must be there guy. My friend said the books where not even his (which is why they where left behind) that a friend of his had gave him a box of random hand-me-down books in a box and he had never even looked in there to see what they where)
After they had him in custody it became apparent there was no actual crime committed but during the course of the investigation they found someone who said 10 years ago he had machine guns. They found the guy who had the guns, which were not machine guns but AR 15's with semi auto trigger groups. However the guy had "legal" drop in auto sears and M-16 bolt carriers and trigger groups which all had come from my friend when he sold him the guns (not assembled as autos, just all the parts he had) The FBI and ATF seized all the parts, assembled them into a illegal firearm to show it "could have" been done and charged him. They agreed to drop the untrue charges if he copped to the gun charges, at this point he had been in the FED system for 6 months and figured since he actually did do what they said he did (own this pile of parts 10 years ago) the best thing to do was own up to it. (he had no money, no lawyer)
My point is you could buy a second hand receiver that the seller told you had never been assembled into a rifle when in fact the paperwork showed it transferred as a rifle or there was some documentation that showed otherwise and if they wanted to cause you all sorts of grief.
I am sure it sounds like my buddy was involved in some jackassery but if you knew him you would think different. He is an incredibly smart and gifted artist who happens to be a practicing Buddhist. There are thousands of good guys out there who have done the same thing or worse at some point.
He got railroaded by the system and you may think it couldn't happen to you but I don't want to take any chances
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I have only put 60 rounds through it so far, but flawless. Shorter barrels aren't an issue with a gas piston instead of DI.
Nothing but praise for Adams Arms.
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I believe the correct nomenclature is "asshattery" but I could be wrong.
The Shockwave parts are cool and just reinforce how stupid gun laws really are.
That being said, I fear that bad things will happen because somehow someone will figure out the angle to making it illegal to use in a particular manner.
The Shockwave parts are cool and just reinforce how stupid gun laws really are.
That being said, I fear that bad things will happen because somehow someone will figure out the angle to making it illegal to use in a particular manner.
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Bwahahahahahaha....
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Like slipping a recoil pad over the end of the brace, closing it off. Already had someone "suggest" I do that.
I think it would be easily argued at that point you have turned the brace into a stock.
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that is not the litmus test for 'possession'. that term is defined as parts which are under a person's control.
you can own the unassembled parts, have them in different locations, and if upon legal review, they can
identify that (for example) you own the short barrel in your mom's basement (you have dominion over),
the non-SBR/AOW receiver in your safe, the vertical forward grip in the trunk of your car....that meets
the legal definition of 'possession' since you have full access to all of these parts.
If you have access to Bardwell's archive, you will see case files establishing possession within the legal arena
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I am not qualified to argue legal definitions. However he was charged for something he had given away (he sold the AR's, gave the guy the parts) 10 years prior. I have a real hard time accepting that something you sold/gave away 10 years ago is in your possession.
I dont want to spin the thread off on a tangent,
My point regardless of semantics is I want to make sure everything I do can be verified 100% on the up and up. I do not want to ever have any gray area, For me personally marking my lowers as pistols gives me some peace of mind. I have more than a dozen AR's, 5 of them are the same manufacture including one of the pistols. Lowers are cheap, If I had a SBR then I would feel differently about the several uppers I have kicking around that are less than 16" but since I don't I want to make it very obvious to anyone looking that there are legal pistol lowers they belong too.
I dont want to spin the thread off on a tangent,
My point regardless of semantics is I want to make sure everything I do can be verified 100% on the up and up. I do not want to ever have any gray area, For me personally marking my lowers as pistols gives me some peace of mind. I have more than a dozen AR's, 5 of them are the same manufacture including one of the pistols. Lowers are cheap, If I had a SBR then I would feel differently about the several uppers I have kicking around that are less than 16" but since I don't I want to make it very obvious to anyone looking that there are legal pistol lowers they belong too.
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yeah, I get it. i think i lost the context as I read it and wasn't diligent in connecting the posts together. thanks for clarifying. r-
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http://www.federalcharges.com/weapons-firearms-laws-charges/
There is a statue of limitations after five years for all federal crimes except capital offenses.
ATF handbook says it's three years for violating NFA laws
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2010/07/statute-of-limitations-for-vio.html
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He was charged as if they were in his possession, even though they were not. My guess is statue of limitations is irreverent. My assumption is that when the FBI and ATF showed up and ask to see the guns the guy said "yeah they are Marks guns" to shift any blame away from him and since they where looking for Marks guns why would the guy say, "Oh no, he sold these to me" Mark was already in custody, Im sure the guy was CYOA. I am almost positive that the guy actually in possession of the guns was not charged with anything
And I may have some details wrong, He served his time and has been out for years. He explained it all too me after he got out but my remember-er is not always so good.
If you want to talk about it more feel free to PM me but lets not bugger up this thread any more than it already is.
And I may have some details wrong, He served his time and has been out for years. He explained it all too me after he got out but my remember-er is not always so good.
If you want to talk about it more feel free to PM me but lets not bugger up this thread any more than it already is.
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Tell him tot get a good firearms attorney who will explain he sold them nearly ten years ago. He can get off without any charges if that's the case.
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As I have said several times now... He has already was convicted, served his time and is now a free man.
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My SBRs. Now living in WA!
Left to right:
Micro Galil in 5.56
Adams Arms 7.5 inch PDW upper with Ergo r93 stock.
Brugger & Thomet TP9 converted to an SBR. 9mm. Nice little rifle. That one is for sale.
Let's see 'em
Left to right:
Micro Galil in 5.56
Adams Arms 7.5 inch PDW upper with Ergo r93 stock.
Brugger & Thomet TP9 converted to an SBR. 9mm. Nice little rifle. That one is for sale.
Let's see 'em
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