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SBR in WA

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I'd say it means as many hoped, current intent of the law is what's been communicated to the ATF as far as form 1 approvals go. Which is awesome, and hopefully that doesn't change.

I'd still like to see legislation run next session to make the law crystal clear as a matter of good process. 'aquire' does cast a pretty wide net but nothing beats absolute clarity.
 
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All very interesting reading! I was dismayed at the apparent conflict in combining an upper and lower and running afoul of the law.

So if I understand correctly, I should be able to do a form 1 for my AR rifle lower, providing the intended barrel length and calculated overall length. Once the form 1 is approved and I have my stamp, that lower is now and forever considered an SBR correct?

Then once it is approved, I could put an upper on it with that length barrel and I am good to go? (Understanding the actual mating of the upper and lower may need to be done out of state with an approved 5320.20 form allowing me to take my SBR across state lines).

Another option is to buy a stripped lower, do the form 1 on it, build as a pistol while waiting for approval, then once approved a shoulder stock can replace the pistol buffer, correct?

Is one option better than the other? Once form 1'd the lower is forever considered an SBR regardless of what upper or whether it has a stock or a pistol buffer tube on it, correct?
 
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All very interesting reading! I was dismayed at the apparent conflict in combining an upper and lower and running afoul of the law.

So if I understand correctly, I should be able to do a form 1 for my AR rifle lower, providing the intended barrel length and calculated overall length. Once the form 1 is approved and I have my stamp, that lower is now and forever considered an SBR correct?


Then once it is approved, I could put an upper on it with that length barrel and I am good to go? (Understanding the actual mating of the upper and lower may need to be done out of state with an approved 5320.20 form allowing me to take my SBR across state lines).


Another option is to buy a stripped lower, do the form 1 on it, build as a pistol while waiting for approval, then once approved a shoulder stock can replace the pistol buffer, correct?


Is one option better than the other? Once form 1'd the lower is forever considered an SBR regardless of what upper or whether it has a stock or a pistol buffer tube on it, correct?
Sort of. Forever until you tell them you want to take it off the registry (say you need to move to a commie state and can't take it with and no one can hold for you)

Correct, and have the engraving of whoever is the "maker" of the SBR and city/state. e.g. xyz trust seattle wa

If you want to take it off the registry and not have totally useless parts one day, pistol better because you in theory will have a pistol still after taking stock off of course.

Form 1 via efile is running 30 days per NFAtracker, so why bother with a pistol assuming you have no intention of removing from the registry and losing $200 in the process.

As a side note to those who think the legislature needs to "fix" language, there is NO reason for the legislature to revisit the SBR/form 1 question. BATFE approves them that is good enough. "building" them in Oregon solves your problem, why give the politicians a chance to undo what they have graciously agreed to allow us to have? They have the power to add language that could make it impossible to form 1. So QUIT WHILE YOU ARE AHEAD!:cool:
 
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Another option is to buy a stripped lower, do the form 1 on it, build as a pistol while waiting for approval, then once approved a shoulder stock can replace the pistol buffer, correct?

Is one option better than the other? Once form 1'd the lower is forever considered an SBR regardless of what upper or whether it has a stock or a pistol buffer tube on it, correct?
I'd recommend this as a fast track to shorty rifle goodness. I am not a lawyer but I have spent a lot of time looking at this.

1) Get a stripped lower. This will be your pistol lower, but there is no point in locking it down if you don't have to. It gets registered on the 4473 as "other". Not pistol or rifle. Now it has no specific disposition related to the rules that get assigned to pistols and rifles respectively.

2) Build the lower. Still not a pistol or a rifle.

3) Get a pistol buffer and the Sigtac Brace. Ignore everyone who tells you it is stupid, ghey or an abomination. It freaking works and the ATF has stated multiple times that they are good with it. Now it is a pistol because a rifle stock won't fit on a pistol buffer. Good times. If you want a front grip of some kind, go with a Magpul AFG or the like as the 45 degree angle doesn't constitute a "vertical forward grip".

4) Get your favored shorty upper. As long as you have the Sigtac brace and a pistol buffer on it, you shouldn't have any problems with a violation of NFA statutes. Now you can have whatever you want. 7.5 inch, 14 inch, 21 inch, whatever. I'd argue (and live by this) that as long as you have a pistol or SBR lower, you can have as many uppers as you want. However, I only have standard TWO AR lowers and one is an "other" and one is a registered SBR (that is coming home in a couple hours from Oregon!) If you have a bunch of "empty" rifle lowers, you could get nicked for constructive possession I guess. I don't so I don't worry about that.

5) Get a lower and do the SBR registration. Why? Lowers are cheap and while the Sigtac brace works, for some situations like a 14.5 inch upper, you may want a more easily adjustable stock or longer stock and the Sigtac isn't easily adjustable or necessarily long.

Now you can have a shorty rifle much faster that also has some advantages over an SBR. The biggest advantage to me is that an SBR is still a Rifle. It is illegal in most states to carry a loaded rifle in your vehicle. Not so with a pistol. This assumes you have a CHL, but if that is the case, you can carry your daily carry piece in your holster and a loaded rifle in your truck if you wanted to. My AR pistol fits nicely in the underseat storage in my F250 and I don't have to worry about whether I ejected that last round or whether the magazine sitting right next to it might be construed as "loaded" even though it isn't in the weapon.

That is my .02. I'll be getting a couple more shorty uppers that I'll move around my two lowers as I see fit. My SBR with a nice Ergo adjustable stock works just fine and is completely legal with an 18 inch Adams Arms upper in .300 BLK as with my 7.5 inch Adams Arms upper in 5.56.

Just get the order of operations right. Get the lower configured with a pistol buffer first before you actually take possession of any sub 16 inch upper. As long as you do that, you should be fine. And really, you'd have to be involved in some serious jackassery to be getting the kind of scrutiny that would be looking at whether you had a pistol lower or not to match your shorty upper. I assume someone diligent enough to ask questions like this can also keep themselves out of trouble. If you know that not to be the case for yourself, stick to the basic AR rifle configuration.

Cheers

Steve
 
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I'd recommend this as a fast track to shorty rifle goodness. I am not a lawyer but I have spent a lot of time looking at this.

1) Get a stripped lower. This will be your pistol lower, but there is no point in locking it down if you don't have to. It gets registered on the 4473 as "other". Not pistol or rifle. Now it has no specific disposition related to the rules that get assigned to pistols and rifles respectively.

2) Build the lower. Still not a pistol or a rifle.

3) Get a pistol buffer and the Sigtac Brace. Ignore everyone who tells you it is stupid, ghey or an abomination. It freaking works and the ATF has stated multiple times that they are good with it. Now it is a pistol because a rifle stock won't fit on a pistol buffer. Good times. If you want a front grip of some kind, go with a Magpul AFG or the like as the 45 degree angle doesn't constitute a "vertical forward grip".

4) Get your favored shorty upper. As long as you have the Sigtac brace and a pistol buffer on it, you shouldn't have any problems with a violation of NFA statutes. Now you can have whatever you want. 7.5 inch, 14 inch, 21 inch, whatever. I'd argue (and live by this) that as long as you have a pistol or SBR lower, you can have as many uppers as you want. However, I only have standard TWO AR lowers and one is an "other" and one is a registered SBR (that is coming home in a couple hours from Oregon!) If you have a bunch of "empty" rifle lowers, you could get nicked for constructive possession I guess. I don't so I don't worry about that.

5) Get a lower and do the SBR registration. Why? Lowers are cheap and while the Sigtac brace works, for some situations like a 14.5 inch upper, you may want a more easily adjustable stock or longer stock and the Sigtac isn't easily adjustable or necessarily long.

Now you can have a shorty rifle much faster that also has some advantages over an SBR. The biggest advantage to me is that an SBR is still a Rifle. It is illegal in most states to carry a loaded rifle in your vehicle. Not so with a pistol. This assumes you have a CHL, but if that is the case, you can carry your daily carry piece in your holster and a loaded rifle in your truck if you wanted to. My AR pistol fits nicely in the underseat storage in my F250 and I don't have to worry about whether I ejected that last round or whether the magazine sitting right next to it might be construed as "loaded" even though it isn't in the weapon.

That is my .02. I'll be getting a couple more shorty uppers that I'll move around my two lowers as I see fit. My SBR with a nice Ergo adjustable stock works just fine and is completely legal with an 18 inch Adams Arms upper in .300 BLK as with my 7.5 inch Adams Arms upper in 5.56.

Just get the order of operations right. Get the lower configured with a pistol buffer first before you actually take possession of any sub 16 inch upper. As long as you do that, you should be fine. And really, you'd have to be involved in some serious jackassery to be getting the kind of scrutiny that would be looking at whether you had a pistol lower or not to match your shorty upper. I assume someone diligent enough to ask questions like this can also keep themselves out of trouble. If you know that not to be the case for yourself, stick to the basic AR rifle configuration.

Cheers

Steve
Pure, unadulterated truth and brilliance.
 
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So how do I know the stripped lower I am buying from a guy had a pistol buffer or rifle buffer if the lower isn't marked as pistol or rifle or registered as such. As in they note in their ad that it was "other" on the 4473?
 
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I'll be sure I do that knowing any LEO can just glance at a stripped lower and know what kind of buffer was attached to it. The point being a lower "registered" on a 4473 isn't a pistol or a rifle and there isn't a way in WA at least for anyone to know what happened after that. Unless you voluntarily send that info to someone. I don't see the point. Clearly there is an ambiguity in the law at work here. Do with this what you will I guess.
 
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I'll be sure I do that knowing any LEO can just glance at a stripped lower and know what kind of buffer was attached to it. The point being a lower "registered" on a 4473 isn't a pistol or a rifle and there isn't a way in WA at least for anyone to know what happened after that. Unless you voluntarily send that info to someone. I don't see the point. Clearly there is an ambiguity in the law at work here. Do with this what you will I guess.
The point being though, IF someone built it and then stripped it back down and the friend of said seller was a bored ATF agent who is looking for something to do... Ya I get it, unlikely, but why take chances?
 
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True. Not likely but possible I guess. Still, a silly point of law in my mind. In the recommendation above you'd leave the pistol a pistol and would have no need of making it a rifle.
 
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True. Not likely but possible I guess. Still, a silly point of law in my mind. In the recommendation above you'd leave the pistol a pistol and would have no need of making it a rifle.
Correct. That was sound advice to start as a pistol and convert to SBR. But since I have no intention of ever taking it off the registry, I don't think about the issue much. Most gun law is silly mental masturbation created by people who don't know what they are talking about in the first place.
 
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^ Solid advice. Just remember once a pistol always a pistol. And once you put pistol buffer onto lower, you have a pistol.
Not true. Once a rifle always a rifle unless SBR'd, but a pistol can become a rifle (with appropriate length barrel) and be changed back to a pistol without any legal problems.
 
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Even more ridiculous is that an AR rifle can't be less than 16 inches without registration as an SBR but an AR pistol can have a 5.5 inch upper or a 21 inch upper with no problems. That wasn't really a real thing until the Sig brace really I guess.
 
I have the ability to stamp my lowers "Pistol" ( I have a 3/32 letter set with a holder so you can stamp the entire word at once and a 30 ton press used specifically used for stamping. I use it to put my name on some tools I manufacture. I can support the mag well from the inside and stamp it opposite the factory markings.) I know its not required but it will make me feel a bit safer from ill informed or over zealous LEO ( I do live in the Seattle metro area :-(. I know a AR "pistol" with a 9" buffer tube and a Sig brace is 100% legal but I am still scared a wee bit

I have a good friend who spent 2 years in the federal pen over some questionable guns that were not even in his possession. He made the "modifications" (swapping out parts) but had not seen them for years. Guns with "legal" pre 86 auto sears that were not installed in the rifles, however because the auto sears where located on the same premises as the guns and full auto trigger groups they still constituted a unregistered fully automatic weapon. I want zero chance of there being any legal gray area, its simply not worth it

In my book the dumbest thing a person can do is not fully research and understand the law pertaining to a firearm in their possession if there is any chance you could either unwittingly commit a felony or someone think you did when you in fact didn't. I am sure there are lots of folks taking any ol AR receiver and putting pistol uppers on them without much of a second thought, 99.9% of them even if they are guilty will never have a problem. I just want to make damn sure I am not that .01%


I like the idea of a SBR but a well set up pistol with a Sig brace is close enough for me (for now anyway) Prior to the Sig brace I pretty much thought AR pistols where just plain dumb, now I own three :)
 
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