Removing the Tap from Tap Rack Malfunction Clearing

[Koda]

Harder to seat a fully loaded magazine with the slide forward without a base pad...again 1911 comes to mind.

Competition drove that modification.

But carry guns arent competition guns. I have a carry gun thats flush fit and has an extended mag for capacity both from the factory by design. Magwells and basepads add bulk and increase printing. The thing about the original drill is it still applies to all pistols regardless. The new technique is faster, has merit based on the design of the gun. Its good to see the evolution in training but it may depend on the individual preference if they want to train pistol specific or in general if they own different guns that they for self defense. I think that would be an important distinction for a student to be aware of.

 

[Cerberus Group]

I think you misunderstood my post. The base pad came from competition, to ensure the magazine gets seated correctly...especially in a high stress situation...that was all.

Is much harder to seat a fully loaded magazine with the slide forward, without the base pad.

If one loads the pistol with the slide locked back, insert magazine, then drop slide...the possibility of the magazine not seating correctly is almost nonexistent. Thus, the Tap becomes way less needed.

If you then want to top off the magazine, that is obviously done in a no stress environment, easier to then get the flush fit magazine seated.

Working with your particular pistol platform is paramount to see what works. Have seen very few that won't work with faster and more efficient methods.

I learned the old style of clearing a fail to extract in the 90s, always thought it was a death trap, as it took way too long to clear.

On another note, there's no such thing as a "Double Feed" on a pistol platform, they are mechanically incapable of such a thing.

 

[American123]

I've personally never had a magazine fail to seat in any pistol or rifle, even when performing fast reloads during competitions. Now, to clarify, I don't make a habit of reloading unless I have ran out of ammo. If I was in a 2 way range situation and I had broke contact after firing however many rounds, I could see how reloading mid-mag would be helpful/desirable, but personally, it is really easy to tell when the mag catch engages or when it doesn't even loading on a closed bolt. I wonder if guys who slam their mag into the well to reload experience this failure more than others. If I press the mag into the well, there is a discernible click when the mag catch engages that you can feel as well as hear.

Have to take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt. I had a former marine, who tries to dabble in instruction, try to tell me not to use the slide stop, only slingshot. I called BS and explained to him that slide stop is always faster and sling shot is only taught in the military because they are dealing with (sometimes) idiots who never shot a gun before and have to be taken from 0 to proficient.

Press checks - another odd one. If you are that worried a round wasn't loaded from a full mag you could pull the mag and see 1 less round.

 

[Koda]

What about speed reloads?

 

[Cerberus Group]

What about speed reloads?

Is easier to get even a flush fit magazine to seat during a speed reload, as there's no resistance in seating.

The problem comes from palm position. With a flush fit, the palm must be flattened out to get the magazine to seat. When having a base pad, it's not nearly necessary...but should always be practiced.

 

[Koda]

Is easier to get even a flush fit magazine to seat during a speed reload, as there's no resistance in seating.

A full mag with the slide closed?

 

[Cerberus Group]

A full mag with the slide closed?

Question answered...read posts above.

 

[Koda]

Question answered...read posts above.

I did, the guy in the video addressed this too... Unseated flush mags was more common when guns designed that way.
I agree with the merits of not tapping if ones carry gun has a basepad, but the question is how many modern carry guns have flush mags? Id say if flush mags have become obsolete then its safe to eliminate the tap, but not for those that still use flush mags.

 

[powermad]

Really informative thread.
When I was testing different hammer springs I never tapped the mag on light strikes I just racked as I knew the mag was seated.
I load full mags with the slide locked back, pistol and rifle as it's just easier to seat them that way.
I don't like to +1 either. Once the mag is seated I don't mess with it, whatever the mag capacity happens to be, is fine with me, that's what a spare mag is for.

I can see the merits of practicing a FTE but placing a round in the chamber and slamming the ejector over it to reseat and clear it looks to be a good way of practicing that drill more than you would like too.
At least on the Sigs that I have that is a surefire way to chip the extractor and induce a FTE.

Are other extractors more forgiving in this?

 

[Koda]

Are other extractors more forgiving in this?

External extractors are fine.
You dont want to close the slide on a round with an internal extractor design.

 

[Cerberus Group]

I did, the guy in the video addressed this too... Unseated flush mags was more common when guns designed that way.
I agree with the merits of not tapping if ones carry gun has a basepad, but the question is how many modern carry guns have flush mags? Id say if flush mags have become obsolete then its safe to eliminate the tap, but not for those that still use flush mags.

It has nothing to do with the magazine having or not having a base pad, not sure how you're getting stuck on that. It has everything to do with...why we do, what we do.

If you're shooting and come along a dead round i.e. bad primer etc., it makes no sense to tap the magazine since things have been running fine all along...almost 100% not a magazine problem, meaning it has not unseated itself.

If you lock your slide back, load the magazine, then allow the slide forward under its own power...one has less of a propensity of the magazine not seating properly, thus no need to tap the magazine when you come across a round that does not go off....you've taken the potential problem out of the equation.

 

[Koda]

So im just scrutinizing this because I was professionally taught the traditional method, just a few years ago actually. So this idea is relatively new, and im not going to take another class just to validate this. Im not against it and have no problems adapting if I can see its an industry standard but no way to validate that.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Makes no matter to me if anyone adopts it or not.

We as continual students need to search out the WHY of what we do based on reality, not theory.

We must understand WHY you take every action; only by knowing WHY are you able to then simplify, streamline, or replace methods.

 

[titsonritz]

The "tap" is directed to the bottom of the mag to ensure it's locked in place.

I had always thought you tap to make certain the mag is properly seated, which is a cause of malfunction. Racking would do no good if the mag isn't seated.

With the exception of older 1911's with there narrow mag well, if a mag is not seated it will fall to the ground making a "tap" to the butt of the frame not the non-existent magazine.

At some point this vid needs to be included here, one of my favorites on the subject....

Just racking would have done the same thing, in all those cases.

I've thought for years about removing the "tap" for many of the reasons Bill brings up. Taking a class with Bill reaffirmed skipping that stoke for me and as he mentions gives the opportunity to sent out two more rounds in the same time frame. The push/pull technique completely eliminates he reasons as far as I'm concerned with a AR.

 

[FourTeeFive]

Maybe just the way that I was taught, but the Thunder Ranch method involves continual practice of doing so that it becomes motor memory. Quick ways to eliminate most problems during stressful defensive or combat situations. You should be thinking about the situation, not taking your mind off that and trying to evaluate what is going on with your weapon. To me the "tap" is still valid as a partially seated mag is still a thing with some guns, including Sigs and CZs. I've even experienced it with a Ruger LCP. From that standpoint I still think that the classic method in the Thunder Ranch video is valid.

 

[WillametteWill]

With the exception of older 1911's with there narrow mag well, if a mag is not seated it will fall to the ground making a "tap" to the butt of the frame not the non-existent magazine.

As both an instructor and student, I've watched many firearms malfunction due to improperly seated mags in numerous types of firearms. Baseplate design seems to sometimes play a role as does dirty guns (3pm after your mags have fallen in the dirt all day). Full mags do not always drop; but they may not be dropping for the same reason they may not be seating.

Malfunction tasks are best if they are "non-diagnostic" not, "for this gun I'll do this if the moon is in the 7th house." I completely agree with others who stated prior that we should continually evaluate the "why" of our techniques and training. Where we arrive as individuals may vary. I respect where others land, but they may not be on the same island that I'm on.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Maybe just the way that I was taught, but the Thunder Ranch method involves continual practice of doing so that it becomes motor memory. Quick ways to eliminate most problems during stressful defensive or combat situations. You should be thinking about the situation, not taking your mind off that and trying to evaluate what is going on with your weapon. To me the "tap" is still valid as a partially seated mag is still a thing with some guns, including Sigs and CZs. I've even experienced it with a Ruger LCP. From that standpoint I still think that the classic method in the Thunder Ranch video is valid.

Anything that is practiced enough should and will become "motor memory". The question becomes economy of motion...what is reality needed vs theory needed.

We get back to the garbage thought of fine vs gross motor skills. Was taboo by early instructors to use the slide stop on the 1911 to release the slide...its a training issue...nothing more.

If the round in a...fail to extract (double feed), isn't coming out after two chances, racking the slide 3 or more isn't going to change the situation. Need to switch to plan B asap instead of fartin' around with a useless chunk of metal and plastic...if the plastic fits.

I teach, manipulate magazine release, remove magazine which allows the slide to go forward. Reinsert same magazine, rack and go...done. If ain't workin by then, it ain't gonna work. No thought process needed. Practiced enough...installed "motor memory"

Where's that easy button.

Like to hear to hear about why Sig, CZs and LCP have magazine seating issues.

 

[Cerberus Group]

As both an instructor and student, I've watched many firearms malfunction due to improperly seated mags in numerous types of firearms. Baseplate design seems to sometimes play a role as does dirty guns (3pm after your mags have fallen in the dirt all day). Full mags do not always drop; but they may not be dropping for the same reason they may not be seating.

Would like to hear what was the cause that created the malfunction due to improperly seated magazines.

Also, what base plate designs cause some of those same issues.

 

[sobo]

I have a P365 in 9mm, a P320 in .40, and a 1911 C3 in .45ACP.
Can't say that I've ever experienced a mag seating issue in any one of them.
But them again, I insert the mag from a slide locked back position...

 

[No_Regerts]

I've been shooting USPSA for fun for about a year now. I always place my spare mags in the carrier with the bullet tips facing forward. When I extract a mag to reload, that just happens to put my fingertip at the bullet tip. The only reason I load my mag carrier this way is that it makes for a whole lot fewer contortions that my hand/wrist has to go through to insert the mag into the gun. It's a simple outward rotation of my wrist as my hand rises to meet the mag well.

Mebbe that's why we load the pouch such that extraction results with the index finger on the bullet tip?

My pistol magazines sit in the pouch with bullets forward. I was trained that way for economy of motion. Then I realized something....my rifle magazines are the opposite.....for economy of motion.

If you imagine a man running and the way he pumps his arms, you don't see any twists of wrists or anything. With my rifle magazines pointing bullets rearward, my hand goes straight down, grabs a magazine, and the hand comes up as a runner pumping his arms, and the magazine gets inserted.

I think the same concept would work with pistol magazines, but my magazines on my belt actually face bullets out, and the ones on my vest face toward my dominant hand. I'm not sure I'm willing to unlearn it at this point.