Removing the Tap from Tap Rack Malfunction Clearing

[Derbel McDillet]

I see what you are saying but I can't ever see doing that so it's not something I would put a priority on training for. I don't gingerly insert the mag so I don't have an issue with a mag not seating in the first place*, once it is seated I've never unintentionally activated a mag release to unseat it nor has it ever happened while the gun is holstered**.

When I trained with Jeff Gonzales (Trident Concepts), he had us randomly load a dummy cartridge into every magazine to instill Tap, Roll & Rack, Recover, so it was an automatic immediate action. (He runs high round count classes.) As for the magazine catch becoming disengaged, stuff happens. If you don't train to clear it then you won't do it if it happens in a gunfight. Tap, Roll & Rack, Recover can be accomplished in less than a second. It's an efficient immediate action solves multiple problems.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Please explain what Tap, Roll and Rack is.

Tap Rack I get...Roll?

 

[Derbel McDillet]

"Roll" (tilt) the pistol so the ejection port faces downward allowing gravity to assist in clearing the action.

 

[Cerberus Group]

That was big 40 years ago, but have found its not necessary.

The way I was taught to clear stove pipes, was to face the ejection port down, like the ROLL you mention. Found out, it doesn't matter which way it faces.

If you're laying on your left side and shooting in tight quarters, say around a vehicle or the like, which puts the port facing up...going to be difficult to get the ROLL part done. Could put the port upside down, but then that puts the left hand in an awkward position to manipulate the slide.

Pistols have controlled feed and ejection cycles, which means the cycle is not dependant on gravity.

Take a pistol and do manipulations holding it at any angle, muzzle down, even when hanging upside down, or with the ejection port up...if they don't cycle...the gun needs to be looked at.

But then who am I to disagree with a SEAL right?

 

[Derbel McDillet]

Gonzales' rationale is all laid out in his book, "Combative Fundamentals: An Unconventional Approach".

 

[Cerberus Group]

Years ago when I was building 1911s for LE, I was asked if my builds would manipulate facing up or down. I told them I didn't know why they wouldn't, as being a controlled feed and ejection, they don't rely on any other outside force to properly cycle.

So off I went to test the theory...even hung upside down on my kids high bar, 'nary a problem.

Then went on to test other pistols ARs and AKs...all functioned in any position I worked them. Sig, S&W, Glock, Beretta etc. The only ones that failed had mechanical problems.

I find most problems with manipulations are pilot error...most usually lack of training time with their chosen platform.

 

[Derbel McDillet]

Rolling the pistol doesn't add any extra time that it takes to perform "Tap, Rack". If "Roll & Rack" helps increase the certainty of success in clearing the action then I'm doing it. Nothing to lose, something to gain with no penalty.

 

[titsonritz]

Rolling the pistol doesn't add any extra time that it takes to perform "Tap, Rack". If "Roll & Rack" helps increase the certainty of success in clearing the action then I'm doing it. Nothing to lose, something to gain with no penalty.

If you put it on a timer you'll find it does add extra, every little step does. I've never had to orientate a pistol in any specific manner to get it clear. Sound like one of theories that has no basis in fact.

 

[Cerberus Group]

In the end, one couldn't possibly know how little I care how one does their manipulations.

The way my mind works, things have to make sense to me, I have very sensitive BS flags. I take things in, then I analyze the information...I don't take it as gospel. I tell my students, test what I'm laying down and verify. Take classes from other people to get different perspectives...but always test the content.

So generically asking...where did the roll come from, why is it needed?

Is it theory...in case this happens or that happens vs reality...where it wouldn't work in cqb or laying on your left side...in which it violates my 1st rule...it must be able to be replicated, which in this instance it can not be.

I'm NOT knocking you and definitely not Gonzalez, but in the situations and positions I've been in...some things that have been taught for 40 years doesn't transfer to the street.

 

[Derbel McDillet]

Timer? I'm not hung up on raw speed. Just need to do it quickly. When a stoppage occurs I perform Tap, Roll & Rack, Recover before I even think about it. It's a conditioned response when the gun doesn't fire when I expect it to. Done and drive-on in a blink of an eye.

Gravity and centrifugal force help to clear the action. Again, no penalty for Roll & Rack. I'll take all the help I can to get my gun up and running.

 

[titsonritz]

Timer? I'm not hung up on raw speed. Just need to do it quickly. When a stoppage occurs I perform Tap, Roll & Rack, Recover before I even think about it. It's a conditioned response when the gun doesn't fire when I expect it to. Done and drive-on in a blink of an eye.

Gravity and centrifugal force help to clear the action. Again, no penalty for Roll & Rack. I'll take all the help I can to get my gun up and running.

The use of a timer is not necessarily about raw speed, it's about dissecting and analyzing the process to identify areas with room for improvement. I think one would be hard pressed to name two greater training aids over a shot time and dummy rounds.

On the "roll" thing, if a right hander rolls the pistol the ejection path would face up, how is that a gravity assist when it would be fighting the the direction of ejection? One would need to roll the pistol 180 degrees to get any benefit from gravity and I would question that would be negligible. Maybe I'm missing something..

 

[titsonritz]

The bottom line is addressed at the 1:10-1:20 minute mark of the OP vid.

 

[Derbel McDillet]

On the "roll" thing, if a right hander rolls the pistol the ejection path would face up, how is that a gravity assist when it would be fighting the the direction of ejection?

Roll in the direction of the ejection port, simultaneously grasp the slide overhand with left (support) hand and energetically attempt to rip the slide off the frame by pulling with the support hand and pushing with the firing hand.

 

[WillametteWill]

Pistols have controlled feed and ejection cycles, which means the cycle is not dependant on gravity.

Agree, but stove pipes or a round that didn't feed that is now lying in the now not cycling opening are gravity related. A tilt, roll, whatever we call it is just a little extra assurance that it will clear. I guess I grew up in the era where semi-auto malfunctioned more. My (well less than 14) handguns all shoot with rarely a hiccup now. My current carry gun will feed empty cases...that would not have happened in the 90's.

The bottom line is addressed at the 1:10-1:20 minute mark of the OP vid.

Always true. You do you. I'll do me. But where it becomes dangerous (IMHO) is when either individuals take advice intended and best served by shooters at a much higher level or instructors teach this way as well.

 

[Koda]

One of the things im trying to find here is if this new technique is universal or specific to newer or certain guns.
If ones pistol or person doesnt have mag seating issues then it makes sense, but what if one owns and or uses several pistols, or has big hands, or is an older person using an older gun like a 1911? The traditional method works for all guns.

 

[titsonritz]

Always true. You do you. I'll do me. But where it becomes dangerous (IMHO) is when either individuals take advice intended and best served by shooters at a much higher level or instructors teach this way as well.

There's that school of thought, too. I'm not sure if this video (I'd have to watch it again) but in one of them Bill says he was talking with Bob Vogel, who also a fellow SWAT officer, World & National Championship shooter and does not "tap", whether they should even bring it up to "regular patrol guys". That said I'm not sure how any of this would qualify as "dangerous" beyond the inherent dangers of handling firearms and life in general. I mean we're not talking about the crazy Spetsnaz shoot at your feet while your're running drills stuff here.

 

[Cerberus Group]

One of the things im trying to find here is if this new technique is universal or specific to newer or certain guns.
If ones pistol or person doesnt have mag seating issues then it makes sense, but what if one owns and or uses several pistols, or has big hands, or is an older person using an older gun like a 1911? The traditional method works for all guns.

Look at post 16, the video I posted...he goes through several different guns and shows it works on everything...yes, even the 1911...which is the first pistol I tried, as I carried a 1911 everywhere.

As I posted above, I worked about every mainline made pistol made and it works on everything I tried.

I encourage everyone that's serious about their training to test the info.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Agree, but stove pipes or a round that didn't feed that is now lying in the now not cycling opening are gravity related. A tilt, roll, whatever we call it is just a little extra assurance that it will clear. I guess I grew up in the era where semi-auto malfunctioned more. My (well less than 14) handguns all shoot with rarely a hiccup now. My current carry gun will feed empty cases...that would not have happened in the 90's.

I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly...a stovepipe is gravity related?

 

[WillametteWill]

Yea, @titsonritz good point, let me explain. Yes, the Spetsnaz stuff is a good (bad) example. I've talked with folks who have done crap similar to this. With regular folks who are (fill in the blank, programmers, letter carriers, average working folks), trusting them with their lives.

On a simpler but I think still dangerous note, I think as instructors (even if we are just teaching our friends how to shoot) we need to be careful if what we teach them. Most newer shooters are like sponges and the first thing they hear is treated like gospel. They will not understand the "why" but can just blindly follow a concept that is not intended for them. Thanks for your perspective on that.

 

[WillametteWill]

I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly...a stovepipe is gravity related?

Of course not. It falling out is. Physics. Something sitting in an open chamber wants to go straight down. Usually, without tilting, rolling, whatever we are calling it, a stovepipe will just fall out. Tilted to the side it is just helping it along. Found this true in a Beretta 92 I no longer have. It was a stovepipe machine!