Removing the Tap from Tap Rack Malfunction Clearing

[WillametteWill]

Would like to hear what was the cause that created the malfunction due to improperly seated magazines.

Also, what base plate designs cause some of those same issues.

Generally, stress. Not having a proper grip on the mag when trying to seat it, not finishing driving it home, thinking about the shot you are about to take...I've seen numerous reason with many better than average shooters when stress is added to the mix. I've watched this in Glocks, Rugers, Kimbers, S&W and numerous other brands. Many small pistols where gripping surfaces are less than ideal. If you do it perfectly every time, then it will likely be an issues. But I keep failing that darned walk on water test every time.

At Gunsite some instructors advised that this was the most common reason for malfunctions seen in classes, not fully seated magazines. I'm going on they have seen a few things over the years with all types of guns (not even 25% of the last class I attended had 1911's.) Base plates will obviously effect the outcome but if you do not have a proper grip on the mag during the change it will not help much.

Personally, I can't remember the last time I had an issue with seating magazines and malfunctions. But I have watched plenty.

 

[Koda]

Whats interesting to me is the Thunder Ranch vid I shared Clint used 3 different types of pistols from a 1911 to a Glock and was teaching the traditional technique. I know that vid is older now but the class I took just a few years ago also taught the same traditional technique... my guess is Thunder Ranch would not have missed a reason to stop teaching the tap...

Times change, techniques and equipment evolve and improve... I'm not against learning new tricks, and will keep this in mind and evaluate... and ask why I do what I do. And forgive me for being critical of the idea, I do trust and respect the level of experience from those contributing to this debate. I understand the merits of omitting the tap, but this would require a lot of retraining to get this out of my muscle memory if I chose...

 

[FourTeeFive]

Like to hear to hear about why Sig, CZs and LCP have magazine seating issues.

What WillametteWill mentioned; mostly stress. I had experienced this during stressful combat shooting training, especially doing weak-arm reloads. In the case of the LCP it was just a new gun that had a stiff mag release that would sometimes "almost seat" if you didn't really slam it in. That problem is gone now, but it did happen. All part of learning, and also finding out issues with a new gun.

CZ and older Sig (and some other military guns) aren't always drop-free as well. It's a good modification to make to reduce the likelihood of this issue. I think I had an issue once with a grip screw interfering with a mag too, many years ago. Lots of potential causes to not realize the mag isn't properly seated, especially for someone just getting into shooting, or shooting with a new gun.

As an aside, I remember the king of limp-wristing guns was an older Sig P220 I had in 45. Depended on the ammo too, but I could intentionally cause it to malfunction by lightening up my grip (again, a common weak-arm issue when first learning). Still love that model though.

 

[titsonritz]

So you guys are saying a fully loaded mag inserted on a closed slide and it remains in the mag well even after a round is shot? I just can't get behind it. One, I would never carry/rely on a pistols and/or magazine that wasn't drop free, and don't see why anyone would (yes, I get curio and older military, but that is presumably not what we are talking about). Two, I've never had a modern pistol/pistol mag not seat for me. Three, IF and a mean big IF, I failed to seat the mag it would fall out immediately and if not most certainly would under recoil of the first round, make a "tap" a useless act.

My thought are if someone is having regular mag seat issues than that probably should be addressed prior to moving on to malfunction clearance drills. In the end, do what ever you're comfortable with. For me, I'm comfortable leaving the tap out, push-pull replaced it on the carbine and it's gone altogether on the pistol.

 

[Koda]

Ive always thought the issue was improperly seated mags when speed reloading under stress, accidentally depressing the mag release. And Ive had one "high end" holster that would always depress the mag release.

Ive also seen modern guns mags do not always drop free. They usually do when the mag release is properly pressed from the spring tension, but if anything overcomes the spring tension ive seen mags hang there just slightly sticking out.

 

[titsonritz]

Ive also seen modern guns mags do not always drop free. They usually do when the mag release is properly pressed from the spring tension, but if anything overcomes the spring tension ive seen mags hang there just slightly sticking out.

Even with a full mag? Can't see why it would be a partial mag.

 

[Koda]

Even with a full mag? Can't see why it would be a partial mag.

Possibly... Im only going off of anecdotal observations over the years. I did mention if the spring tension is overcome. Say the mag release is accidentally depressed and the persons palm is interferring or touching the basepad.

All these scenarios are rare, but possible. Then again on many modern guns any malfunctions are exceedingly rare.

 

[WillametteWill]

Okay, first thanks and respect to all here as this is a fantastic example of why a) this forum is super and b) why we all need to keep evaluating our training and techniques. I believe this perspective will help. As @titsonritz noted, it would be bad to have handguns were the mags won't drop free. Seen them, but I agree 100%. But here is the catch.

When the magazine release is depressed.

I think we will all agree what when you are loading the fresh mag we shouldn't be pressing the mag release still. The reason full mags will not fall is due to the tension created by the mag release on the side of the magazine when it is not in the catch slot. Y'all inspired me to test this on a few guns lying around the house (14 to be exact). In 13 of them FULL mags would not fall. The only gun where they did was a S&W M&P Shield EZ 380. The other guns consisted of various makes, calibers, single and double stack. So to be clear, this is inserting a magazine that does not go all the way home; more likely in a slide forward reload but still possible (although less likely) with the slide back.

So awesome discussion and for me and with my teaching, I will continue to tap, and now I will have a story and reason why. Along with stories from other firearms instructors including Gunsite.

Again, kudos to all for this and the many other reasons the site and folks here are awesome to share ideas with!!!

 

[titsonritz]

I think we will all agree what when you are loading the fresh mag we shouldn't be pressing the mag release still. The reason full mags will not fall is due to the tension created by the mag release on the side of the magazine when it is not in the catch slot. Y'all inspired me to test this on a few guns lying around the house (14 to be exact). In 13 of them FULL mags would not fall. The only gun where they did was a S&W M&P Shield EZ 380. The other guns consisted of various makes, calibers, single and double stack. So to be clear, this is inserting a magazine that does not go all the way home; more likely in a slide forward reload but still possible (although less likely) with the slide back.

I'd be curious to see what change (if any) to that ratio when you shot one round as presumably if a mag change is being done on a forward slide, there would be a round in the chamber. My thoughts are the recoil would dislodge any mag not fully seated and held in by the release, making a "tap" land on the bottom of an empty mag well.

 

[Koda]

Seems like this comes down to a trade off of statistics. The idea of eliminating the least likely cause of a malfunction in trade for speed. Considering the already low likelyhood of any malfunction the idea has merit, though Murphy does love to play statistics to his advantage....

 

[Cerberus Group]

From the above given info history of witnessed range malfunctions, it appears to be more pilot error than weapon induced.

Any methods looked at must, in my opinion pass 3 tests; 1 - Can it easily be replicated; 2 - Will it work when opposed...or under some form of combat stress; and 3 - Can it be done fast and efficient.

I've trained under Col. Cooper and quite a few of the "patriarchs" of the combat pistol world...but is unfortunate that some were stuck in the 60s and 70s and couldn't seem to progress.

What was equally disheartening, as the more street involvements I was in, i found my early training ill prepared me for the street.

 

[Derbel McDillet]

When carrying a pistol it's not uncommon for the magazine release to be come disengaged when sitting, especially in a car with a seat belt, or if you get into a ground fight before you draw and shoot, or when you have to squeeze through a tight obstacle. When this happens it turns your pistol into a "one-shot wonder". The fix? Tap, roll & rack, recover.

You may also fail to seat the magazine when reloading with the slide in battery, such as after clearing a stoppage, especially if you're conditioned to seating a magazine with the slide is locked back. When I load my pistols I NEVER load with the slide locked back. I load with the slide in battery and then rack the slide to chamber a round. This trains me to seat the magazine with authority to overcome the tension of the magazine spring.

Loading, unloading, and clearing stoppages all use the same motions. The key is to train yourself to use these motions efficiently.

 

[WillametteWill]

From the above given info history of witnessed range malfunctions, it appears to be more pilot error than weapon induced.

Yes, agree, of course. Nearly all malfunctions are caused by humans. But the cause doesn't matter once the firearm has malfunctioned.

Any methods looked at must, in my opinion pass 3 tests; 1 - Can it easily be replicated; 2 - Will it work when opposed...or under some form of combat stress; and 3 - Can it be done fast and efficient.

Can't disagree with these either. Tapping falls under all three of these catagories.

I've trained under Col. Cooper and quite a few of the "patriarchs" of the combat pistol world...but is unfortunate that some were stuck in the 60s and 70s and couldn't seem to progress.

Many of the current Gunsite instructors were in diapers in the 60's and 70's. I used them as just one example. It seems like many instructors have to find something wrong with training or tactics. It's like when I was a kid...buy PF Flyers shoes, they make you run faster and jump higher. I don't train Tier 1 operators. Many average good, average folks do not stand over their bed at night and practice mag changes like I, and not doubt many others here do. So going back to your #1 point, human failure. But now we are in a situation with a malfunctioning gun because they did not seat the mag properly. I acknowledge this could happen to me under stress, in the dark, with sweaty hands, while wrestling with someone in a Walmart parking lot (because we all know things go to bubblegum at Walmart!)

I've had fellow officers hand me their shotguns, after holding a suspect at gunpoint, because they could not unload it due to the stress. I've watched officers fumble to reholster handguns under many conditions. Training issues? Sure.

So for me, this has been a great critical thinking exersize. In the OP video the guy is talking about SWAT teams, not average folks. He sounds like he evaluates problems for his world, as he should. Thanks to all contributing their ideas and perspectives to this valuable (for me anyway) conversation.

 

[Cerberus Group]

It seems like many instructors have to find something wrong with training or tactics. I

This is a sad unfortunate occurrence. We should instead be constantly evaluating the WHY we do, WHAT we do, instead of settling for "this is the way we've always done it" but can't explain the WHY behind it.

Most gun handling skills were derived back in the day based on the 1911, as that's what most people had. Training classes back then, the high percentage of participants had them...now one hardly sees one in a class.

Take the fail to extract or double feed, that was mainly a 1911 problem, as their extractor is a weak point. Fast forward to now, with modem pistols one very rarely sees one.

The remedy back then was to discard the magazine because we were all told that it was the cause of the problem...but never was the problem, because a pistol is incapable of a double feed like the AR platform is...thus has been mistitled incorrectly all these decades...yet, here we are...still calling it what it is not, still training the remedy that is based on the 1911 platform.

 

[Derbel McDillet]

You're likely to induce a double-feed when clearing a stovepipe. The reason is because a cartridge is partially chambered when the slide jams on a spent case and when your rack the slide it may catch the next cartridge in the magazine underneath the partially chambered one, jamming the second cartridge into the first cartridge.

 

[titsonritz]

The remedy back then was to discard the magazine because we were all told that it was the cause of the problem...but never was the problem, because a pistol is incapable of a double feed like the AR platform is...thus has been mistitled incorrectly all these decades...yet, here we are...still calling it what it is not, still training the remedy that is based on the 1911 platform.

You're likely to induce a double-feed when clearing a stovepipe. The reason is because a cartridge is partially chambered when the slide jams on a spent case and when your rack the slide it may catch the next cartridge in the magazine underneath the partially chambered one, jamming the second cartridge into the first cartridge.

Case in point.

 

[Derbel McDillet]

I'd be curious to see what change (if any) to that ratio when you shot one round as presumably if a mag change is being done on a forward slide, there would be a round in the chamber. My thoughts are the recoil would dislodge any mag not fully seated and held in by the release, making a "tap" land on the bottom of an empty mag well.

You can verify this yourself. Seat a full magazine, chamber a cartridge, press the magazine release to unseat the magazine and fire. My Glock magazines don't fall out during recoil, and in all the classes I've been in in which this fault is inserted into the gun nobody else's magazine fell out.

 

[Cerberus Group]

......

 

[titsonritz]

You can verify this yourself.

I don't have his 14 guns so I really can't.

Seat a full magazine, chamber a cartridge, press the magazine release to unseat the magazine and fire. My Glock magazines don't fall out during recoil, and in all the classes I've been in in which this fault is inserted into the gun nobody else's magazine fell out.

I see what you are saying but I can't ever see doing that so it's not something I would put a priority on training for. I don't gingerly insert the mag so I don't have an issue with a mag not seating in the first place*, once it is seated I've never unintentionally activated a mag release to unseat it nor has it ever happened while the gun is holstered**. Because of that I have thought for a long time about not tapping and after much debate, breaking it down and tracking with a timer, I now put it into full practice.

*The only seating problem I've experienced was with an AR back when the standard mantra was to insert the mag and smack (tap) the bottom to ensure it is seated (a good way to induce a double feed BTW), I've had the the mag fall out as I'm back up for the tap, this problem has been rectified with the push/pull method, since then never had an issue seating an AR mag.

**The lone exception was a Para Ordnance P-14, the problem here was with the mag release protruded too far out and with get unintentionally pressed, even from setting it on a hard surface. It was enough of a deal breaker to ditch the gun.

As always, to each there own. If there is one thing I've learn with training it is not to do stuff just because it is the "normal" way of doing stuff.

 

[WillametteWill]

I don't have his 14 guns so I really can't.

I don't either, wife and kids.