Recommendation for a bear gun.

[leverite]

I don't know about the RMEF being exactly "wolf happy". I've been a member for years and regularly read their Bugle magazine. They may not tell their members to "shoot, shovel and shut up", but I think being "wolf happy" might be detrimental to their know about the RMEF being exactly "wolf happy". I've been a member for years and regularly read their Bugle magazine. They may not tell their members to "shoot, shovel and shut up", but I think being "wolf happy" might be detrimental to their membership drive.

I have never been a member of RMEF, but a close friend was and left the organization before he passed...nearly 25 years ago.
He said his issue with them was their support for wolf reintroduction. Happy to have wolves.
So...old hear say fwiw.

I have just read that RMEF now is vigorously fighting more wolf reintros.
So I apologize to RMEF and members for my ignorant remarks.

 

[Spitpatch]

Good on ya.

Here's RMEF's policy, in case anyone is curious:

RMEF Position on Wolf Management

February 10, 2014 RMEF Position on Wolf Management The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation maintains that science and biology are key facets in maintaining a [...]

www.rmef.org

I'm sorry for the loss of your friend. Without making too many assumptions, he may have been among those (many, in fact) that completely opposed any Wolf reintroductions whatsoever. RMEF knew that scenario was not in the cards. Sometimes you have to throw your hat in the ring lest you be left out of the game completely. That decision to participate in negotiations angered many members.

I have a friend of similar point of view, his bolstered by the fact Wolves are now on his property in NE Oregon. He's also of the belief (supported only by rumor) that RMEF's executives have exclusive hunting rights on all the Conservation Easements they establish with property owners.

But he's still a member of RMEF, even contributing extra to them. He does this because he's seen the good work they do, and there are VERY few such organizations that can boast about (and completely reveal) where the money goes.

And you are among the very few here that will come forward with not only a sincere correction, but a genuine apology.

 

[leverite]

Good on ya.

Here's RMEF's policy, in case anyone is curious:

RMEF Position on Wolf Management

February 10, 2014 RMEF Position on Wolf Management The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation maintains that science and biology are key facets in maintaining a [...]

www.rmef.org

I'm sorry for the loss of your friend. Without making too many assumptions, he may have been among those (many, in fact) that completely opposed any Wolf reintroductions whatsoever. RMEF knew that scenario was not in the cards. Sometimes you have to throw your hat in the ring lest you be left out of the game completely. That decision to participate in negotiations angered many members.

I have a friend of similar point of view, his bolstered by the fact Wolves are now on his property in NE Oregon. He's also of the belief (supported only by rumor) that RMEF's executives have exclusive hunting rights on all the Conservation Easements they establish with property owners.

But he's still a member of RMEF, even contributing extra to them. He does this because he's seen the good work they do, and there are VERY few such organizations that can boast about (and completely reveal) where the money goes.

And you are among the very few here that will come forward with not only a sincere correction, but a genuine apology.

Thanks, but just in keeping with my motto...

Ready...FIRE!... Aim

 

[Certaindeaf]

Thank you for the Dean Weingarten reference wherein he destroys the mistaken belief that handguns are not effective toward a bear attack.

...and mentions bear spray only once , and early, and in passing reference as another method absent any negative data whatsoever.

"Politicized studies with predetermined outcomes" performed by multiple Game Commissions, wildlife organizations such as RMEF, Wild Sheep Foundation, renowned biologists and some of the most highly regarded hunters in the field. Eastman's recognizes situational advantages to spray AND gun. This is apart from asking what would be the imagined motivation for "politicized studies" of the issue. Are bear attacks somehow political now?

"Bear spray failures...more likely than handgun failures." Data? The darling Weingarten sure didn't go there in his strong defense of handgun effectiveness. His avoidance is telling. He advocates admirably for the firearm's effectiveness while never even approaching discussion of bear spray's record. My guess is because he knows it, advocating for the firearm while never discounting spray.

Toward valuable references (WITH data) I would offer this. Somewhat more lengthy and detailed than Weingarten's effort:

https://bearwise.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/efficacy-of-bear-spray-smith-et-al.-2010.pdf

Having worked for an Outfitter in the Bob Marshall Wilderness, multiple trips to Alaska including numerous meetings with bears, I would have traded a right arm in those days for an effective option other than a firearm in those encounters. Having killed a number of bears (two with bow and arrow, BOTH of which came back to "the scene of the crime" to investigate what had mortally wounded them), I believe I know what it takes to make a bear quit doing whatever he is doing that is disagreeable. Having been "dosed" with capsicum more than once in military and law enforcement training, I wished for more than one moment that they'd used a gun on me.

My decision to rely on BOTH implements (and knowing spray's documented record) is based on experience (admittedly none in usage against a bear) and far from "wishful thinking". The hard data is in, still being developed from numerous unbiased sources including people who regularly spend time with bears testifying to spray's effectiveness.

Pack 'em both. In the heat of the moment when an accurate shot may not be possible (and with a handgun on a big bear, it MUST be surgically accurate), bear spray IS (and has been demonstrated repeatedly) the better option for all concerned.

...unless of course (as some here have noted) you wanna kill a Bear.

Speaking of surgical I always remember the Elmer Keith story of scrawny black getting shot in the eye with a .455 Webley as it charged at close range.. there's a lot more detail to that particular story which are pretty memorable.

 

[ma96782]

Well, good luck with a handgun. IF, you should run across this guy.

Grizzly bear attacks worker in a ‘surprise encounter’ in Wyoming creek, officials say

The man only had time to drop to the ground and cover his neck and head, wildlife officials said.

www.yahoo.com

Aloha, Mark

 

[Howard1955]

Trust the surveys and the statistics.

It's science, Man!






The National Park Rangers are advising hikers in Glacier National Park and other Rocky Mountain parks to be alert for bears and take extra precautions to avoid an encounter.

They advise park visitors to wear little bells on their clothes so they make noise when hiking. The bell noise allows bears to hear them coming from a distance and not be startled by a hiker accidentally sneaking up on them. This might cause a bear to charge.

Visitors should also carry a pepper spray can just in case a bear is encountered. Spraying the pepper into the air will irritate the bear's sensitive nose and it will run away.

It is also a good idea to keep an eye out for fresh bear scat so you have an idea if bears are in the area. People should be able to recognize the difference between black bear and grizzly bear scat.

Black bear droppings are smaller and often contain berries, leaves, and possibly bits of fur. Grizzly bear droppings tend to contain small bells and smell of pepper…

 

[Mono1]

Black bear droppings are smaller and often contain berries, leaves, and possibly bits of fur. Grizzly bear droppings tend to contain small bells and smell of pepper…

That's funny.

I used to camp every year in the Sierra's.

One time out hiking, we found a terd with a ziplock in it.

NOT a Ziplock with a terd in it. A a terd with a ziplock in it.

 

[Howard1955]

That's funny.

I used to camp every year in the Sierra's.

One time out hiking, we found a terd with a ziplock in it.

NOT a Ziplock with a terd in it. A a terd with a ziplock in it.

Sounds like somebody lost their sammich.

 

[tlfreek]

bear spray

 

[Certaindeaf]

bear spray

Pray and spray ftw!

 

[Mono1]

bear spray

I'm Not relyin' on That Sh*t.

 

[Flopsweat]

I'm Not relyin' on That Sh*t.

60% of the time, it works everytime.

 

[leverite]

Dean Weingarten has a new article in Ammoland regarding the studies on the "efficacy" of bear spray and firearms in dealing with problem bears.
Sorry to not include a link.

 

[Flopsweat]

Dean Weingarten has a new article in Ammoland regarding the studies on the "efficacy" of bear spray and firearms in dealing with problem bears.
Sorry to not include a link.

Is this it?

Bear Spray is Human Seasoning; Take a Gun if You Want to Survive a Bear Attack

Seven times as many people have been killed by bears when bear spray has been used in defense than have been killed by bears when a handgun has been fired in defense.

www.ammoland.com

 

[leverite]

Must read your link. The new Weingarten article is below.

How Was the "98% Success Number" for Bear Spray Computed?

It is irresponsible to claim "science" in comparing studies, which use different definitions and math, & to then say bear spray is more effective than firearms.

www.ammoland.com

 

[ScatPackLife]

Hey team,

I am looking for a good bear gun for my dad who lives in Prescott, AZ. A guy was just mauled and partially eaten by a black bear (very rare) about ten minutes from their place. Dad knows his way around firearms, but at 81 I'm a little reluctanct for him to use his trusty .44MAG as that sucker kicks like a scalded mule and last time he had it at the range, I could tell he was having trouble controlling the recoil. I like a revolver for this task and am thinking 10mm. I've never shot a 10mm revolver, but I already know it's more manageable than the .44. I know the ten is a lower energy round but I think it will penetrate enough to give the bear second thoughts if not turn him into a nice rug.

Any suggestions? Thank you in advance.

Your thread went from "what gun/caliber for my aging dad" to "bear spray or side arm". Welcome to NWF, where you get answers to questions you never asked!


But anyway: my vote would be 44 special with a heavy Hard Cast Semi-Wadcutter running around 1000fps. Better grips could help also depending on what he has now.

What revolver does your dad have? Barrel length?

A LOT of people underestimate the 44spl because on paper the SD ammo look underpowered, but I've researched and it's stopped many bad guys (obviously you would need hunting ammo) and has a great reputation among hunters who have used it. I know one man who never underestimate the 44spl, his name was Elmer Keith, you might have heard of him. 44spl is very accurate, recoil is manageable, and a hard cast has a lot of penetration potential, plenty for a black bear, even a big one. It would save money since you don't need to buy a new gun and he's already familiar with it so there's not a potential learning curve.

I know there is a crowd that disagrees with me but, I believe a heavy, hard cast flat nose 44 spl is better for bear defense than 10mm or .357mag. Penetration is what kills bears and what penetrates is heavy, hard boolits with a wide meplate. You can get heavier bullets in 44 than you can in 10mm or 357. Super fast is not necessary and in some cases speed slows a bullet once it hits an animal because it causes the bullet to dump energy faster, think about the old 556 vs 7.62x39. But you do need a certain amount of velocity to make sure there is enough energy behind it.
Here is ammo I would recommend:

- Double Tap. Often overlooked but very reputable and one of my favorite ammo manufacturers.

44 Special 240gr Hardcast Solid™ SWC

A great woods load for your 44 Special! This cartridge uses standard pressure. You can use it in any .44 Special that is in good condition! This powerful loading comes in boxes of 20!Caliber : .44 SpecialBullet : 240gr SWC Keith Style HardcastBallistics : 920fps - 451ft./lbs. - 6.5" bbl.800fps...

doubletapammo.com

- Buffalo Bore. Well known and for a good reason. They say this round is good for large game up to 500lbs. I have some of this. I believe what they say.

Heavy .44 Special Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

Heavy .44 Special Field Proven pistol and handgun ammo. Maximum firepower bullets. Best ammunition for pistols and handguns for sale. Buffalo Bore. Strictly big bore. Strictly Business.

www.buffalobore.com

- Underwood ammo. Great company that makes top shelf ammo. When in the woods I load my 4" S&W M69 with the Xtreme-Penetrator but the 255gr SWC would be a great choice also.

44 Special 255gr. Keith-Type Semi-Wadcutter Black Cherry Coated Hard Cast Hunting Ammo

Underwood Ammo offers the most comprehensive and innovative Underwood Ammo™ Subsonic Handgun Ammo for personal defense & hunting. Shop now .44 Special Lead ammo with Hi-Tek Coated Hard Cast.

underwoodammo.com

44 Special 220gr. Xtreme Penetrator® Solid Monolithic Hunting & Self Defense Ammo

Underwood Ammo offers the most comprehensive and innovative Lehigh Defense™ Supersonic Lead Free Handgun Ammo for personal defense & hunting. Shop now .44 Special Copper ammo with Solid Monolithic.

underwoodammo.com

- Grizzly Cartridges. Another well known ammo manufacturer. This round is a little slower than I would like buts it's because the bullet is heavier. (More velocity might put it into the 44mag realm.) Look at the meplate on that thing.

44 SPECIAL 260gr WFNGC - Grizzly Cartridge, LLC

Caliber: 44 SPECIAL Bullet Wt: 260gr Bullet Type: Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Velocity: 950 fps Rounds: 20 M.E.: 521 ft lbs. Made in the USA: Yes Recommended for: Hunting ...

grizzlycartridge.com

There are other good woods carry rounds out there but these are ones I think are solid choices.

I read someone recommend the Cowboy action 44mag loads because the recoil is very soft and you can get them in 240gr flat nose SWC that fly around 1100fps. I would not recommend those for bear defense. They are not hard cast lead, they use soft lead. I think they use soft leads because it's less expensive and it's less likely to ricochet on steel.

Hard cast lead penetrates significantly more than soft lead. Soft lead will flatten when it hits hard material like bone and can even deform in soft tissue. Because it deforms, the frontal surface area gets larger and causes the bullet to slow down faster and won't penetrate as much, similar to a JHP. It can also cause it to deviate and not go straight in the animal as well as bouncing off bone instead of breaking it making good shot placement less effective.


As for the bear spray debate: I agree with the "carry both" crowd. Both have uses. But if I'm getting charged by a bear I'm pulling out my 44.

 

[wired]

308 Winchester machinegun

IMG-0528.jpg

• wired
• Aug 26, 2023

 

[terdog]

I'd suggest a Springfield XDm Elite Compact using Underwood 200 or 220 Hardcast. 15 rnds uber penetration.
Small enough for a easy chest carry.
Those rounds will penetrate 3 20" gell blocks COMPLETELY. Yes I know that gel ain't bear, but it's a medium that is constant and it's replicated.
A semi auto can fire faster on target than a revolver.

 

[The Heretic]

 

[msgriff]

Interesting video of a coastal brown bear hunt from last year that's making the rounds again. Bolt gun failure at the wrong time, saved at the last minute by a 454 Casull.