Washington Re-manufactured Ammunition

[RyanChamberlin]

I put up an ad selling shotgun slugs and 00 Buck. I was told by a moderator this was 'extremely illegal' unless I have a class 6 FFL. Can someone help me understand why, and if there are any workarounds? I can make them glow in the dark, which is something stores do not have. Can they be sold partially intact, like filled with its contents, but have the buyer roll crimp the rounds? Any advise would be most welcomed.
Thanks
Ryan

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[Stomper]

The manufacture and commercial sale of ammunition is regulated by the BATFE which requires a class-6 FFL, and local jurisdictions may also have zoning/licensing requirements as well.

As for the "80%" loophole, you're probably asking for WAY more trouble from the BATFE (and bone-head customers that WILL fudge something up) than it's worth....

 

[User 1234]

Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use. [18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a); 27 CFR 478.41]

www.atf.gov

Arizona Man Indicted for Illegally Engaging in the Business of Manufacturing Ammunition Without a License | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

LAS VEGAS, Nev. – A federal grand jury sitting in Las Vegas indicted Arizona resident Douglas Haig today with one count of engaging in the business of manufacturing ammunition without a license, announced United States Attorney Dayle Elieson for the District of Nevada and Special Agent in Charge...

www.atf.gov

27 CFR § 478.41 | eRegulations

regulations.atf.gov

 

[RyanChamberlin]

The manufacture and commercial sale of ammunition is regulated by the BATFE which requires a class-6 FFL, and local jurisdictions may also have zoning/licensing requirements as well.

As for the "80%" loophole, you're probably asking for WAY more trouble from the BATFE (and bone-head customers that WILL fudge something up) than it's worth....

Thank you!!!

 

[RyanChamberlin]

The manufacture and commercial sale of ammunition is regulated by the BATFE which requires a class-6 FFL, and local jurisdictions may also have zoning/licensing requirements as well.

As for the "80%" loophole, you're probably asking for WAY more trouble from the BATFE (and bone-head customers that WILL fudge something up) than it's worth....

Thank you very much!!

 

[Flymph]

Walking a fine line with that stuff...
Even "teaching people" in a class like setting is questionable and can get you in trouble. I'd just get the FFL if you want to seriously consider this, and actually might be marketable to a degree. Cool idea tho.

 

[WillametteWill]

Walking a fine line with that stuff...
Even "teaching people" in a class like setting is questionable and can get you in trouble. I'd just get the FFL if you want to seriously consider this, and actually might be marketable to a degree. Cool idea tho.

To this note, I noticed on my firearms instructor insurance, teaching reloading classes (which even the NRA has) is specifically not covered by the insurance.

 

[oremike]

So here is a question to ask yourself "Is what I'm doing worth gambling my house away?" Business insurance would protect your house, but you can't have that without being a business and you need the proper documents to be a business. FFL, State license, ect. When I retired I thought I'd make a little ammo and sell it to support my shooting hobby. Once I started looking into what it takes I realized I eather had to be a business makeing ammo for sale or a hobbyist only making my own ammo not for sale.

 

[rednek80]

You might be able to set it up so that people provide you with the components and you load them and keep half and they take the other half... not actually selling anything....hmmmm

 

[bbbass]

Those are some cool looking rounds. Wishing you all the best in your new biz venture.

Note: Most (edit: NEW) biz fail because of lack of proper planning. Please heed the advice to check out all the requirements to make this a biz!!! ... And investigate how to control product liability. As was said, it might not be worth it.

 

[galvweld]

If you have an original idea that merits protection development and potential marketing to the public, write a detailed letter containing as much information as you can commit to paper. Mail it certified to yourself as early a date as possible. It may be your idea is worth far more as a marketable idea than pursuing the range of Government requirements. This simple act has preserved unique ideas and products from being stolen or copied. Even if you retain all rights on a small scale. Not an attorney, just experienced. Just a thought.

 

[Member 5605]

I still say per the ATF documents that it states "livelihood" which is in stark contrast to some on this forum. I don't believe anyone has proven this wrong with proof other than 'this grey area will get you spanked'.

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. My default is that it is your ammo, your livelihood if it kabooms in somebody else's firearm with no liability ins.

 

[Member 5605]

I'm gonna double post:

if we take the exact words from the ATF website:

Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?

• Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit.
• No, if the person reloads only for personal use

This is similar when we read:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The word "and" at the end changes it if it was an 'or' but it's not, it is 'and'. It does not state "Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood or profit."

As far as the man getting nailed for the selling of ammo to the vegas shooter.

Before the attack, Haig had been working as an engineer at Honeywell in Arizona while operating a personal ammunition business, Specialized Military Ammunition, out of a workshop at his home. Through the business, he sold personally manufactured ammunition both online and at gun shows, including at least one in Nevada.

He also sold thousands upon thousands of rounds, not just a handful here and there. Dude WAS making a business (see above) for the purpose (see above) and used it for livelihood (see above).
Its legal for two dudes to meet in an alley and play pokey behind their families back but not to exchange munitions for fiat currency.

 

[The Heretic]

You might be able to set it up so that people provide you with the components and you load them and keep half and they take the other half... not actually selling anything....hmmmm

No.

 

[Barefootdog]

How long are the finished shells?

...And what part of the shell glows in the dark
What"s the weight of the slug?
FPS of slug and 00?

 

[arakboss]

I'm gonna double post:

if we take the exact words from the ATF website:

Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?

• Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit.
• No, if the person reloads only for personal use

This is similar when we read:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The word "and" at the end changes it if it was an 'or' but it's not, it is 'and'. It does not state "Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood or profit."

As far as the man getting nailed for the selling of ammo to the vegas shooter.

He also sold thousands upon thousands of rounds, not just a handful here and there. Dude WAS making a business (see above) for the purpose (see above) and used it for livelihood (see above).
Its legal for two dudes to meet in an alley and play pokey behind their families back but not to exchange munitions for fiat currency.

It's funny how some believe it's legal to sell personal reloads as components in the reloading section but it is illegal to sell those same reloads in the ammo classified section. Either it's legal or it's not. I believe it's legal unless you are doing it as a business to support your livelihood in which case you should get a license.

 

[The Heretic]

It's funny how some believe it's legal to sell personal reloads as components in the reloading section but it is illegal to sell those same reloads in the ammo classified section. Either it's legal or it's not. I believe it's legal unless you are doing it as a business to support your livelihood in which case you should get a license.

There is the liability issue too

 

[User 1234]

Keep in mind that many manufacturers of perfectly good products get sued anyway if their product was anywhere near an accident. Even a successful defense before trial takes a lot of money which ideally comes from an insurer.

 

[arakboss]

There is the liability issue too

There are definitely increased liability issues with reloaded ammo. I was simply agreeing with @Dyjital that it is not illegal for somebody to sell their unwanted reloads as long as they are not engaging in the manufacture of ammo as business with out a license.

 

[arakboss]

In the case of the OP his efforts could very well be construed as manufacturing ammo as a business since he appeared to be maunfacturing the shells with the intent to sell them and presumably to make money doing so.