Proper way to handle LEO while OC

[SonicBlue03]

Those are all silly scenarios but all within a similar context: officer makes a request without having any legal grounds, using his authority as intimidating factor in order to achieve compliance, and not to forget the false pretense for the interaction itself to begin with.

The point I am trying to make, when is it okay for a citizen to be pissed off and refuse cooperation ?

The fingerprint thing made me think of a clip in a really terrible movie they were showing at the gym today (Eagle Eye) where they were in fact using a handheld scanner to read fingerprints and relate them to driver information. So funny enough, that one was fresh in my mind (and bothered me a little, but when technology gets there it's probably a matter of time where that becomes viable and deployable.) Checking someone who exhibits signs of being drunk? I'm actually perfectly okay with that. I don't drink, so if I was checked on that suspicion I might take issue with it, but the idea of someone drunk carrying a gun - generally - doesn't have a lot of upside.

I think "the line" is where personal of family safety is compromised. That's a grey line for everyone, so the answer to your question is "I don't know."

 

[fd15k]

The fingerprint thing made me think of a clip in a really terrible movie they were showing at the gym today (Eagle Eye) where they were in fact using a handheld scanner to read fingerprints and relate them to driver information. So funny enough, that one was fresh in my mind (and bothered me a little, but when technology gets there it's probably a matter of time where that becomes viable and deployable.)

Friend of mine worked for this company 3M Cogent - Biometric Identification Systems , they have developed portable fingerprinting solutions currently used by FBI and Canadian government

Checking someone who exhibits signs of being drunk? I'm actually perfectly okay with that. I don't drink, so if I was checked on that suspicion I might take issue with it, but the idea of someone drunk carrying a gun - generally - doesn't have a lot of upside.

I implied checking without a PC. Seeing an obviously impaired person with a gun on his hip is a different situation from the one in the video.

I think "the line" is where personal of family safety is compromised. That's a grey line for everyone, so the answer to your question is "I don't know."

See, that's the point. In my opinion the line has been crossed in the video - citizen has been intimidated without any good reason.

 

[dakaham]

When is the last time an officer stopped you to just say hello? Me personally its never happened. LEO's in uniform stopping me for what ever reason are not my friend. They are there looking for a crime or citation period. I will treat them with courtesy and respect but I will not let them violate my rights or give them any information that WILL be used against me in a court of law. Traffic stop they get my ODL, proof of insurance and registration that's it! I am not saying a word. They know why they pulled me over and I'm not admitting to anything. Stop me in the street they will get even less. I am not saying they are bad cops but even good people make mistakes. So I will envoke my right to remain silent and never consent to a search or seizure, get a warrant.

 

[fd15k]

When is the last time an officer stopped you to just say hello? Me personally its never happened. LEO's in uniform stopping me for what ever reason are not my friend. They are there looking for a crime or citation period. I will treat them with courtesy and respect but I will not let them violate my rights or give them any information that WILL be used against me in a court of law. Traffic stop they get my ODL, proof of insurance and registration that's it! I am not saying a word. They know why they pulled me over and I'm not admitting to anything. Stop me in the street they will get even less. I am not saying they are bad cops but even good people make mistakes. So I will envoke my right to remain silent and never consent to a search or seizure, get a warrant.

Two years ago, Culver City, California. I was standing in an alley next to Big5, waiting for a guy from the calguns.net to show up with ammo for me to buy. Cruiser passed next to me, and I think officer in the passenger seat greeted me, but I didn't respond or even looked their way. Couple of minutes later they came back, stepped out of the car and approach me. "Why are you standing here so sad ?" was their pickup line. They went on about me ever being arrested, my reasons for being there, for some good 7-10 minutes. Finally they left me alone when I got a call from the guy who has arrived.

 

[bikejunkie]

Maybe it's just my easy going way... But if this happened to me here in Oregon. I would be polite, offer up my ID and CHL to start with, I would ask to retain my weapon, but if that bothered him I would surrender it for the duration of our conversation. Because in the end I know that is all it is 'a conversation'. I am in the right and 99.999% of the time nothing will come of it. If in the mean time I can ed-u-ma-cate him on the finer points of the law I will. But the whole "you seized my property you big hooligan" attitude would never have started with me. I would have started with more respect for somone that probably has more sphincter shrinking moments in a week than I've had in the last 2 decades.
But like I said, I'm easy going.

This. Exactly. I live my life by a simple philosophy. Don't be a dick. Everything in the world goes smoother that way.

 

[fd15k]

This. Exactly. I live my life by a simple philosophy. Don't be a dick. Everything in the world goes smoother that way.

There is a difference between not being a dick and bending over on demand.

 

[dakaham]

Please watch both part 1 and part 2 if u think there is no reason you shouldn't talk to the police. May change your mind.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

 

[fd15k]

The fact is that I may not always be right. I am not perfect. If I have probable cause (articutable facts that would lead a rational person in a similar situation to believe that more likely than not a crime has been committed and you are the person who committed it) then arresting you and lodging you at jail is not a "violation of your rights". Like it or not that is how the system works.

So what do you think about the video in the OP ?

 

[dmancornell]

Wow Deja Vu. I'm hearing the same thing that usually comes from the back of my patrol car while en route to the jail. I suppose we the world would be better without police, government, or any laws. Let's ask the citizens of rural Josephine County how that's working out for them.

"I called 911 and nobody came!"

The fact is that I may not always be right. I am not perfect. If I have probable cause (articutable facts that would lead a rational person in a similar situation to believe that more likely than not a crime has been committed and you are the person who committed it) then arresting you and lodging you at jail is not a "violation of your rights". Like it or not that is how the system works.

I really like the casual smear that only crooks dislike the government hegemony. And how we should all just bow down to the system, take it and like it, because that's just way it is.

Maybe if you stopped wasting time arresting people for non-crimes and read a few books on the long libertarian tradition, you wouldn't say such dumb things.

 

[RB87]

So how do you feel about the AZ immigration law? That's exactly what's going on there. How is an LEO suppossed to determine who is and isn't legal without asking for "papers"?

"Papers please" already exists.The feds in border states have setup technically temporary checkpoints to stop traffic. Why is the border patrol asking people 50+ miles from the border if they're US citizens? DHS/BP already claim the right to stop/search at checkpoints anyone within 75 miles of the US border. Thats most of the US population. I'd guess much of the Willamette valley (if not most population centers west of the cascades) is within 75 miles of the coast, maybe not if you count the border as x miles out to sea.

United States Border Patrol Interior Checkpoints - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (heck this states its up to 100 miles of the Canadian border).

75 mile radius around Salem:
Radius Around a Point on a Map

What Happens When You Insist on Your 5th Amendment Rights to Not Answer Questions or Show Your Papers to Immigration Cops in an Empty Desert Somewhere? - Hit & Run : Reason.com

 

[fd15k]

"Papers please" already exists.The feds in border states have setup technically temporary checkpoints to stop traffic. Why is the border patrol asking people 50+ miles from the border if they're US citizens? DHS/BP already claim the right to stop/search at checkpoints anyone within 75 miles of the US border. Thats most of the US population. I'd guess much of the Willamette valley (if not most population centers west of the cascades) is within 75 miles of the coast, maybe not if you count the border as x miles out to sea.

United States Border Patrol Interior Checkpoints - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (heck this states its up to 100 miles of the Canadian border).

75 mile radius around Salem:
Radius Around a Point on a Map

What Happens When You Insist on Your 5th Amendment Rights to Not Answer Questions or Show Your Papers to Immigration Cops in an Empty Desert Somewhere? - Hit & Run : Reason.com

Yep.



I've taken this picture while walking on a bike path at the beach in El Segundo, California last month :

View attachment 159827

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

There are some well-respected members of this site that are former and active LEOs. I'd be interested to see their responses if you pose that statement to them as fact. You might be surprised at the response.

Funny. With regard to people in authoritative positions, I was raised that Golden Rule is an effective first method of engagement. And in the one time I can actually remember where an officer was aggressive/antagonistic with me, it wasn't difficult to de-escalate the situation to where they became civil and polite. People have bad days, and I'm not going to crucify a group of people for the slips of some individuals.

Well respected members or not, Yes I do say it as a fact. Secondly LEOs are some of the most illinformed when it comes to firearm function and law. Also, Just because someone has orders they need to carry out doesnt mean they need to talk down to me or accuse me of a crime nor does it mean they can spout off rediculous fear inducing false charges they "could" impose if I don't cooperate. I understand they have to be on guard, but my paitence wears thin when I show respect and undsertanding and get none in return, oh and don't even get me started on our bubblegum court system. The abuse of power is quite substantial and yes I will lump all of them into a group whether they are good men or not..
I'm sure there were some pretty swell Nazis back in the day, doesnt mean I'm have to play nice with any of them.

 

[Flyingswords]

Well respected members or not, Yes I do say it as a fact. Secondly LEOs are some of the most illinformed when it comes to firearm function and law. Also, Just because someone has orders they need to carry out doesnt mean they need to talk down to me or accuse me of a crime nor does it mean they can spout off rediculous fear inducing false charges they "could" impose if I don't cooperate. I understand they have to be on guard, but my paitence wears thin when I show respect and undsertanding and get none in return, oh and don't even get me started on our bubblegum court system. The abuse of power is quite substantial and yes I will lump all of them into a group whether they are good men or not..
I'm sure there were some pretty swell Nazis back in the day, doesnt mean I'm have to play nice with any of them.

Its more like split somewhat between all LEOs. You have some who think theyre GOD (this includes the rookies), you have some who are ex-miltary (i.e. MP) who know the law as well as the more senior LEOs. Its just ppls luck that they get stopped by an LEO who doesnt know laws regarding carrying firearms. Those LEOs who dont know or refuse to acknowledge they exist put ppls lives at risk at their own ignorance/stupidity. Its like theyre hoping for a chance for whoever they stop to screw up and do something and act like a hero.

 

[fd15k]

Its more like split somewhat between all LEOs. You have some who think theyre GOD (this includes the rookies), you have some who are ex-miltary (i.e. MP) who know the law as well as the more senior LEOs. Its just ppls luck that they get stopped by an LEO who doesnt know laws regarding carrying firearms. Those LEOs who dont know or refuse to acknowledge they exist put ppls lives at risk at their own ignorance/stupidity. Its like theyre hoping for a chance for whoever they stop to screw up and do something and act like a hero.

I don't believe that was the case in the OP. If they didn't know the law, the guy would get officially detained / arrested. Instead he was bullied into giving up his property and identity without any formal accusations being presented.

 

[jdubl]

I really didn't think the guy in the video was being a D-bag. He sounded nervous and intimidated. My saint of a 75 year old grandma feels the same way around police....i wonder why?

 

[Father of four]

Calling or labeling someone a D-Bag seems to be a phrase quite often used by LEO's to describe a civilian who does not agree with them.

 

[Father of four]

Portland, Maine... that makes a difference and withdraw most of my previous comments. What I could quickly find is that Maine is open carry and my quick google search did not bring up any restrictions within Portland, Maine. So the guy was correct in what he did and said. His attitude and etc is debatable and was obviously not out to make friends but make a point.

Do most cops try and make friends with a civilian when they encounter them? No...More like they are just doing there job.

 

[Father of four]

If by "proper" you mean "educating the officer on individual rights while acting like a smug a-hole that used to get beat up a lot before he could carry a gun" then yes, I think this thread was titled properly.

There are plenty of ways to make your point without being a dbag. It's a pity that so many people choose the alternative.

Case in point. So nice of you to talk down to or about people, officer.

"There are plenty of ways to make your point without being a dbag." Its hard to do isn't it?

 

[Smiddy]

Two? I would communicate the law to the officer in as a respectful a tone as possible indicating my understanding of it. If he chose to disagree still, I would politely ask him to contact his shift lieutenant or sergeant to come mediate what would appear to be a dispute in understanding of the law.

So you're saying you would do exactly as the guy in the video did; less the video????? wow what a waste of a post.

 

[Smiddy]

I notice the police car in the background is Portland, so I assume this happened within the PDX city limits. And last I heard the communist controlled community of Portland has a 'No Open Carry' ordinance. I know & the police officer knows that the Oregon CHL permit supercedes that. My thought is that the subject's open carry breaks the PDX ordinance giving the officer probable cause to stop & question him. It would then up to the subject to produce his ID AND a current CHL to prove he has the right to both open & concealed carry anywhere in the state of Oregon, minus a few Gov/Fed buildings, ect. Any statements to a 911 caller have no legal standing to an officer on scene and he would need to verify any information supplied in that manner.
If this is the case then he is lucky he did not get cuffed & stuffed until they could remove his wallet from his person and find the CHL themselves. This said I hope I'm not the next CHL holder this officer talks to. And for the 'subject' in this video, you did our community no good in this. Next time maybe it's a well deserved concrete kiss for you.

After reading the case law the video subject quoted, you would be correct in the case of Portland Oregon. In Portland Oregon, there is a city ordinance that outlaws open carry without a license, however it is legal to open carry with a license, so (IN MY OPINION BASED ON MY INTERPRETATION) unless the officer has reasonable cause (suspicion not being compelling enough) to believe a law is being broken, he has no right to force a person who is Open Carry to produce something saying otherwise. He of course has the right to approach and ask for the ID or ask the subject anything he wants for that matter, but not the right to force the issue if the subject declines to answer any questions of the officer.

Just simply being suspicious the person doesn't have a license to carry may not be enough to warrant a forced interaction between the LEO and the subject.

I haven't actually read the statutes wording in a while, so I could be wrong.