Powder or bullet manuf.?

[daved20319]

So when working up a new load, if the bullet and powder manuf. disagree, which do you default too? I realize there are other variables involved, but these seem to be the primary parameters that folks focus on, and I'm going to be working with both a powder and bullet that has little published data. Thanks.

Dave

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[Mooseman]

I go with the bullet manufacturer... mainly because jacket thickness and lead composition can affect pressures. The Bullet makers test for that to develop loads and data.

 

[DizzyJ]

I generally change the bullet, but powder can have a profound effect as well.

 

[po18guy]

If the powder manual lists only bullet weight rather than bullet manufacturer and style, go with the bullet maker info. For bullets of a given weight, the jacket composition, bearing length, flat base or boat tail all make a difference in pressure and velocity.

Which cartridge are you loading for? Bolt, semi, lever or?

 

[jordanka16]

If the bullet manufacturer has a load then I use that, after all it was tested with the exact bullet and powder. In general as long as you are cautious and work up like you should it doesn't matter all that much.

 

[po18guy]

Bearing mind that it will take awhile to work up a load, using the starting loads as suggested. This procedure must be followed as there are simply too many variations in firearms chamber dimensions, bore diameters, rifling leade, rifling types, even twist rates, cartridge internal capacities, powder production lots, primer manufacturer charge, etc. And this discounts ambient temperatures. A hot day makes a hot load hotter, and it makes a max load....well best not to go there.

 

[orygun]

Go with the bullet manufacturer, preferably straight out of their loading manual.
That's where I like to start. But sometimes I have to "fudge" it a little when trying a powder I don't have listed in a manual. Then I do my best to make sure the bullet tested with the powder is very close in style, weight and composition.

 

[RVTECH]

That's where I like to start. But sometimes I have to "fudge" it a little when trying a powder I don't have listed in a manual. Then I do my best to make sure the bullet tested with the powder is very close in style, weight and composition.

Unfortunately no all bullet manufacturers provide load data for their bullets - especially those who make lower cost bullets in bulk. HSM is a good example. In this case using data for a similar style & weight as previously mentioned will be necessary.
The bullet manufacturers don't have near the 'built in' interest or liability as say the powder manufacturers do to provide safe and correct load data.

 

[joken]

Case capacity can be a deal breaker. Me and a good friend absolutely couldn't get his 300wm to group consistently until we finally bought some new brass, problem solved. On the other hand, I have a pre-war M70 that will shoot itty bitty groups with darn near any ammo.

 

[P7M13]

A bunch of my loadings are "off the reservation".
If you search your bullet & powder combination, you may find people who have tried it.
Having done that many times, here's my procedure:

• I'll drop the loadings by 20% and work up in 0.5 grain increments.
• If I'm using surplus powder, I check fill requirements. Some powders don't behave well unless they are at 90% case fill or better, some behave poorly if compressed.
• If I cannot find data, e.g. shooting a much heavier than normal bullet, I'll opt for slower powders first in the load tests.

Good luck, stay safe!

 

[Mooseman]

I started reloading in 1974 and now I have several rules I follow after loading and shooting hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammo in Pistol, rifle,shotgun , and BPCR.
1. Never go below 10% of the recommended start load . Too little powder can in some cases produce a S.E.E. explosion where pressures exceed 90,000 CUP and yes, your gun may blow apart !
2. Never use bulk pulled surplus powders from an unknown source ie. Gallon jugs with no labels at gun shows ... it should be used as fertilizer for your garden only.
3. Always refer to several reloading manuals for referencing powder / bullet recipes as we have found misprints in years past in data.
I can usually extrapolate data to find a good starting point by comparing.
4. Always check older cans of powder for spoilage , like an acid smell or red dust . Do not use it.
5. Test fill the case you want to use with a charge of powder you are going to use and see where it fills to. I have found most rifles perform best with the powder right at or just below the shoulder and seldom do i load with powder to the base of the neck or compressed as it just has not shown good results. If low end load data shows X amount and it fills the case to full or overflowing , SUM TING WONG ! If the case is only half full... SUM TING WONG !
6. Label the powder hopper on your thrower with what powder is in it every time you fill it.A strip of paper with the powder number stuck between the lid and the hopper hanging out works great or a piece of masking tape labeled will be stronger than your memory if you are like me and use 20 different powders to load 40+ different calibers.
7. IF you cannot find good hard data for what you are loading or possibly a new or wildcat cartridge ... CALL the Powder Company and speak to one of their loading Engineers. They are Happy to assist you if they can with type and amount of Powders for different bullets.
The Bullet Makers Like Speer and Sierra have Engineers that can help you as well.
8. If you are using a balance beam scale double check where you put the sliding weights...One notch wrong is 5 grains on the coarse side which can be catastrophic if your load is upper end to begin with.
9. Do a forensic look at your fired cases as soon as it is ejected from the gun. Look for flattened primers , cratering , primer flow, and look for powder soot residue around the case neck, look for pressure signs on the rim and case head where the extractor was , and look for bulges, splits , anything out of the ordinary. Always check the rifle bore if "it didnt feel or sound right" as you may have a squib and a bullet stuck in the bore ! Stop testing if you see overpressure signs in a batch !!!
10. Remember , you are dealing with a Controlled Explosion right near your face and hands and anywhere from 25,000 psi to 70,000 psi depending on cartridge . A affects B which affects C and that's the ABC's of reloading !

Be Safe Brothers and Sisters !

 

[daved20319]

Thanks, guys, good info. I hadn't completely thought this through, going with the bullet manuf. as first choice makes sense, assuming they list a load for the powder I'm using. And just so it doesn't sound like I'm being mysterious , rifle is a bolt action Savage .223, bullets are the SMK and TMK 77 gr., and powder is Hodgdon CFE 223.

Per Sierra, I already know that the same load data can be used for either bullet, although OAL will differ due to the tip, but there's a glitch in my Sierra load data. They have separate listings for AR and bolt action, which is good, but the bolt data skips the 77 gr. bullet and goes straight to 80. As my rifle as a 9 twist barrel, I don't even know if this bullet will work, Sierra calls for a minimum (?) 8 twist. But I've got them, and it did well with some IMI 77gr Razorcore a friend of mine let me try, so I'm going to give them a shot . That said, I'll only be loading 3 at each increment rather than my usual 5, no sense wasting supplies if they're not going to work. Later, and thanks again.

Dave

 

[Mooseman]

Thanks, guys, good info. I hadn't completely thought this through, going with the bullet manuf. as first choice makes sense, assuming they list a load for the powder I'm using. And just so it doesn't sound like I'm being mysterious , rifle is a bolt action Savage .223, bullets are the SMK and TMK 77 gr., and powder is Hodgdon CFE 223.

Per Sierra, I already know that the same load data can be used for either bullet, although OAL will differ due to the tip, but there's a glitch in my Sierra load data. They have separate listings for AR and bolt action, which is good, but the bolt data skips the 77 gr. bullet and goes straight to 80. As my rifle as a 9 twist barrel, I don't even know if this bullet will work, Sierra calls for a minimum (?) 8 twist. But I've got them, and it did well with some IMI 77gr Razorcore a friend of mine let me try, so I'm going to give them a shot . That said, I'll only be loading 3 at each increment rather than my usual 5, no sense wasting supplies if they're not going to work. Later, and thanks again.

Dave

Call Sierra and talk to their engineers.1: 9 twist rifling is usually going to stabilize 69gr. or lighter. For heavier bullets I shoot 1:7 or 1:8 twist. I have found in some cases slowing a heavier bullet down in longer rifling can give acceptable accuracy with the right powder.
Good luck and keep us posted !

 

[DizzyJ]

Thanks, guys, good info. I hadn't completely thought this through, going with the bullet manuf. as first choice makes sense, assuming they list a load for the powder I'm using. And just so it doesn't sound like I'm being mysterious , rifle is a bolt action Savage .223, bullets are the SMK and TMK 77 gr., and powder is Hodgdon CFE 223.

Per Sierra, I already know that the same load data can be used for either bullet, although OAL will differ due to the tip, but there's a glitch in my Sierra load data. They have separate listings for AR and bolt action, which is good, but the bolt data skips the 77 gr. bullet and goes straight to 80. As my rifle as a 9 twist barrel, I don't even know if this bullet will work, Sierra calls for a minimum (?) 8 twist. But I've got them, and it did well with some IMI 77gr Razorcore a friend of mine let me try, so I'm going to give them a shot . That said, I'll only be loading 3 at each increment rather than my usual 5, no sense wasting supplies if they're not going to work. Later, and thanks again.

Dave

Don't count out the 77s in your twist. The tipped SMKs are stable to 1,000 yds in my savage 1:9 and I've shot Nosler 77s out to 600 yds so far without issue.

 

[daved20319]

Don't count out the 77s in your twist. The tipped SMKs are stable to 1,000 yds in my savage 1:9 and I've shot Nosler 77s out to 600 yds so far without issue.

Good to hear, I don't expect to ever get that much range to play around in, but maybe out to 500 or so someday. Local range is really only good to about 300, maybe 400 if you're willing to hike up the hillside. As this is purely and only for my own entertainment, I'm not terribly motivated to find a longer range, especially as there are issues with traveling. Just out of curiosity, what's your load for the tipped SMK's? I also have some 75 gr. Nosler's I'll be trying. Later.

Dave

 

[DizzyJ]

Good to hear, I don't expect to ever get that much range to play around in, but maybe out to 500 or so someday. Local range is really only good to about 300, maybe 400 if you're willing to hike up the hillside. As this is purely and only for my own entertainment, I'm not terribly motivated to find a longer range, especially as there are issues with traveling. Just out of curiosity, what's your load for the tipped SMK's? I also have some 75 gr. Nosler's I'll be trying. Later.

Dave

Had to go look

Hornady brass (virgin)
CCI 400 primers
21.8gr IMR 8208XBR
2.935 BTO (base to ogive)

 

[DizzyJ]

I'm getting 2,745 ave speed with that load.

 

[jordanka16]

Had to go look

Hornady brass (virgin)
CCI 400 primers
21.8gr IMR 8208XBR
2.935 BTO (base to ogive)

I'm loving that 8208xbr, meters like ball powder but shoots like stick powder.

 

[DizzyJ]

I'm loving that 8208xbr, meters like ball powder but shoots like stick powder.

It doesn't meter QUITE that well for me, but it does better than Varget and some of the othe longer stick type powders. I am currently loading and weighing every single charge by hand at this point in time for my rifles.

Pistols, not so much.

 

[jordanka16]

It doesn't meter QUITE that well for me, but it does better than Varget and some of the othe longer stick type powders. I am currently loading and weighing every single charge by hand at this point in time for my rifles.

Pistols, not so much.

I've been using it to load 5.56 on my dillon, I think I will try it out to load .30-06 for my M1s next. It's just so convenient to be able to load that quickly and still get very consistent results.