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- #181
FPNI.
I'll add - if it hasn't already been noted in these 9 pages - that the narrative being promoted is the truck tried to 'run the road block'. It is very clear to me that road block was set up in a corner. That corner combined with high snow drifts and timber on each side was a blind corner. As the truck negotiated that corner it is clear to see in the video they began breaking the moment the road block was in view. They obviously swerved to miss it all awhile braking. They did not try to run it.
Now given what I have just detailed, I find it disturbing that the narrative being promoted is not what I see on the video. Now everything else I hear is suspect to me.
Yes, he seems to reach into his pocket a few times. But then raises his hands after each time. It appears to me he is confused. I can imagine conflicting instructions being given to him. "hands up!" "throw down your weapons!" He even could have been reaching in pain after being shot. Who knows without audio. But again, the narrative being promoted is not what happened.
I did not vote in the poll.
Google Earth coordinates: 43° 49.601'N, 118° 58.284'W
In the video I referenced, the brake lights come on at 5:45, just as Finicum's truck passes the Joaquin Miller Horsecamp entrance. You can see the entrance sign.
The road is nearly straight at this point, in a line of sight drawn between the horsecamp entrance sign and the location of the roadblock. It his highly probable that Finicum saw the roadblock 1 second earlier, and had a normal reaction time in applying brakes.
The roadblock and point of impact were located at the 2nd hashmark of broken painted median line, just after the double-solid line has stopped.
The distance from where Finicum 1st applied his brakes (the horsecamp entrance sign) to the 2nd hashmark is 380 feet.
The 60-to-zero stopping distance of a 3/4 ton crew-cab truck is 150 feet.
If a driver "feathers" or lightly applies brakes, the brake lights are on. Finicum had his foot on the brake pedal for 380 feet. He wasn't trying to stop, or else he would have stopped. Before the roadblock.
Finicum was able to swerve radically without fishtailing or otherwise losing control. The pavement looks very clear in the video and the truck is able to swerve suddenly, while braking, without skidding or sliding. Good road conditions.
If you DOUBLE the emergency stopping distance of the truck, a competent driver who wanted to stop before breaching the roadblock would have stopped 80' before the roadblock.
It seems highly probable that Finicum intentionally operated his vehicle in a manner intended to breach an obvious "You must Stop" line established by law enforcement officials.
So Martini, I broke your roadblock argument by refuting it with publicly available information. It won't be enough to say "nuh-uh". You have to do better. If you want to retain this position, you must either present better evidence to support your position, or embrace the fact that you prefer irrational opinions. Not just Martini, but anyone who holds the same position.
Martini's "hands behavior" argument does not address the culmination of available information on Finicum. Finicum unlawfully occupied a public wildlife preserve, brandished firearms, & made veiled threats about not being taken alive. His actions resulted in law enforcement research. The research revealed a novel by Finicum where the protagonist's lifelong battle against government agents ended with the protagonist gunning down 3 government agents in quick-draw fashion using a single-action revolver. Within days of the initial occupation, LE probably incorporated this information in their risk profile of Finicum. He was an anti-gov extremist who relished the apocalypse and a chance to shoot some bad government agents. Maybe you don't like that, but it doesn't matter. What, would you prefer less-competent law enforcement instead? Later, Finicum refused lawful orders to exit his vehicle during a lawful attempt to effect his arrest on a federal arrest warrant. Finicum unlawfully fled the arrest attempt. Finicum unlawfully breached a lawful roadblock, exited his vehicle, and 8 seconds later began repeatedly reaching into his jacket and waistband area for 6 seconds until he went down.
If you are Finicum, and you don't want to die, in a span of minutes you decided against 3 consecutive opportunities to behave in a manner that would ensure your survival.
Payne took the 1st opportunity, and guess what? He survived.
Bundy? Other Bundy? Cox? McConnell? Sharp? These people are all not dead. None of them disobeyed lawful orders to exit a vehicle. None of them rammed a roadblock. None of them danced around outside a vehicle playing "maybe I'm a quick-draw cowboy". Instead, they acted intelligently. They did everything they could think of to not look like maybe they were going for a gun. It worked! Every time!
If you are Finicum and you want to die, it is difficult to think of a better way to accomplish that than what you did do.
Why not get out at the 1st stop?
Why run?
Why ram a roadblock?
Why not face-plant immediately when you get out of the truck?
Why not face-plant after running around for 8 seconds and still not getting shot?
The narrative YOU are promoting is not what happened. Your narrative is not based on competent analysis. It is based on conjecture and hearsay. You side against law enforcement despite your lack of any real reason for doing so. Sorry, but your position doesn't look intelligent.
Emotional response SEEMS to overwhelm logical analysis in this thread, but logic is actually prevailing in the poll (although the numbers are too small to be meaningful).
I still suspect that if the poll response reached 8000 instead of 170, you'd see the true grass-roots opinion of rational board members in a 90/10 type scenario. Unsurprisingly, I think most people just have better things to do than quibble with a vocal minority on an internet forum.
Which is something I need to stop doing myself.
Have a great day!