Not legal in Oregon, legal in Washington?

[Sstrand]

OR . . . It could backfire on you!!!
The knife guy who killed the two guys on the train is claiming "Self-Defense" because they were an immediate threat, as he saw it, or more likely his lawyer told him to see it!!!!!!!!

Sheldon

 

[etrain16]

OR . . . It could backfire on you!!!
The knife guy who killed the two guys on the train is claiming "Self-Defense" because they were an immediate threat, as he saw it, or more likely his lawyer told him to see it!!!!!!!!

Sheldon

I saw that. Problem is the video taken of him before the attack, he made a threat to stab the MAX driver in the neck - he repeated that he was "about to stab someone in the neck". With that alone, I think his defense is likely to fail.

But that video also makes me think that those three guys (along with anyone else) should have stayed the hell away from this lunatic. He was obviously not just some loudmouth, but rather someone, clearly unstable, making actual threats. They should have let the LE's handle it and just keep everyone else on the train away from him until they arrive or until they could stop the train and get off. Watching that video, I would never have approached that guy, no matter what he was saying. Heroic action on their part, maybe, but a bad decision in my mind.

Like I said above, leave the LE stuff to the LE's, unless there is an immediate and imminent threat of physical harm or death to yourself or someone else. Words won't kill someone, and they will get over it. And stolen property will either be returned or (hopefully) covered by insurance.

 

[DuneHopper]

The law is clear the practice of enforcement is grey as hell. ( not an attorney nor do I play one on TV)
Two cases no charges filed.

1. Sutherlin Oregon , wife comes home see man sleeping on couch walks down to where her husband works a a Bar, the husband comes home and the guy on the couch is sleeping he shoots him dead while he slept. No charges filed was around 2009 or so.
2. Man breaks in home Myrtle Creek Oregon, Robber in a unoccupied house owner comes home robber jumps out window starts running across the field of the property man jumps in his truck runs the robber over gets out and shoots him. No charges about 2002.

This are the rough facts as I remember them, do this in Portland you will be life in prison no doubt here not even a night in jail.

CHL does not = a Cops Shield and does not protect you for any offensive use period. It is only for defense.
Holding a person that was not now or ever a threat is not defense.

If one is gonna do something stupid with their CHL think this one rule.

Senator Prozasnki ( anti-gun nut ) is also a Prosecutor in Lane County.
Imagine him viewing your case ......Ya enough said..

 

[rick benjamin]

I attended last year, I plan to attend in September.
Slow learner, Lots of information.

"Learn from the best. Attorney Andrew Branca, Law of Self Defense, is teaching in your area!
On Saturday September 9, Threat Dynamics in Sherwood Oregon will be hosting Andrew Branca as he teaches his LEVEL 1 Law of Self Defense Class, specific to the laws of Oregon and Washington. You've armed yourself to win the physical fight. Now prepare yourself to win the legal fight that follows. To find out more go to:
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IMPORTANT: Register by August 9 and save $50!
Hope to see you September 9!
Emily Branca
Law of Self Defense

P.S. As mentioned, this course is specific to Oregon and Washington self-defense law. If you don't live in one of these two states or are interested in other state laws, please update your profile by going to:
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so that we can better focus our emails to your interests"

 

[41mag]

further question independent of my digesting all the posts above: re: "ither way, it's going to result in a major hassle-make sure it's worth it. Like an above opinion, I'd be inclined to let someone steal my car"

what if that car being stolen contained firearms?

 

[bbbass]

Holding some at gunpoint, or citizens arrest, is always dicey in any state. Officers arrive and you are the man with a gun... OOPS!

Make sure you join/hire a firearms legal defense team before you draw your weapon.

 

[thorborg]

I personally would not consider what the law reads if my life is on the line.
Self preservation is instinct, martyrdom is not. (mother / child relationship notwithstanding).
Should I believe I'm to be dead without action, I'll do what it takes to reverse that.
While I would like to shoot the dirty rat stealing my car, and feel I should be able, I am intellectually savvy enough to weigh options verses outcomes, and would not, or even pull my gun.

 

[Alexx1401]

further question independent of my digesting all the posts above: re: "ither way, it's going to result in a major hassle-make sure it's worth it. Like an above opinion, I'd be inclined to let someone steal my car"

what if that car being stolen contained firearms?

Is said firearm worth you going to prison for life? If so start shooting at the fleeing car. If not, call 911. Say my car was stolen and there was a firearm in it.

 

[RicInOR]

There is a certain individual sitting in prison who pulled his firearm, while on TV, to stop a group of people from intimidating him, or possibly striking him with weapons. The mob clearly had disparity of force. And he sits.

Be certain you can articulate why you had to pull.
And, why no other action was available.


These may also apply to the OPs musing:
2015 ORS 161.219¹ ORS 161.219 - Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person - 2015 Oregon Revised Statutes
ORS 161.209 [1971 c.743 §22]" ORS 161.209 - Use of physical force in defense of a person - 2015 Oregon Revised Statutes

 

[PiratePast40]

.... Senator Prozasnki ( anti-gun nut ) is also a Prosecutor in Lane County.
Imagine him viewing your case ......Ya enough said..

I understand where you're coming from, using "traffic court Floyd" is a good example of someone pretending to be a real prosecutor when he only prosecutes misdemeanors. But he certainly like to brag about being a prosecutor and acts as if it adds credibility to his arguments.

Here's one attorneys opinion: In 2010, Malheur County District Attorney Dan Norris said "personally, I find it insulting when Sen. Prozanski, who at best prosecuted low-level felonies years ago in the Lane County District Attorney's Office and who has subsequently prosecuted nothing but misdemeanors and traffic tickets, defends SB 3508 by telling voters he is a prosecutor." Reference here: Why is Senator Floyd Prozanski protecting rapists? | The Oregon Catalyst

Sorry for the trip to a different destination, just think that it's important, especially at this time when some very significant pieces of legislation are close to a decision point. This also illustrates how personal experiences and emotions can enter into a legal decisions. Those experiences may have noting to do with a specific case, but can have significant bearing regardless.

 

[Camelfilter]

I fear lawyers more than I fear death. I'm not pulling my weapon unless someone is actively trying to stick a knife between my ribs. Anything else is asking for court dates and bankrupting legal fees.

That being said, my firearms instructor in my CHL class said that under Oregon law you can pull your weapon to stop crimes against persons or property. It's right there in the statute. But... if there is anything the least bit squirrelly or questionable about your actions you are gonna spend a long time sitting in court rooms. Oregon has no "brandishing" law. Here it is called "menacing" which is legally distinct from brandishing. But I'm just "another guy on the Internet" so what do I know?

Knife & 7 yards is too close for a trained Leo, I'd figure on 10 yards about rite for your average Joe or Joan to be within the lethal zone.

So...thief had a tool to break into the car, said tool could also be interpreted as a weapon. Just cause to draw a concealed weapon & hold said thief at gunpoint. Said thief approaches Joe or Jone within lethal knife wielding range? Justified lethal force.

Done.

 

[WALawyer]

I think it comes down to the fact that if they had fired, then they'd be in trouble because you can't use deadly force to protect property (unless they really were in danger of actually being run over, although as a practical matter, shooting the driver of a vehicle speeding towards you is unlikely to stop the vehicle even if you plant one right between the eyes). Thus, if the thieves sought to drive away, the couple technically could not open fire. There was a news article just a few month ago about a guy in Sammamish that got in trouble for shooting a car thief.

The other part of the equation is that even if they technically broke WA state law by simply holding the thieves at gunpoint, it may have been that the prosecutor looked at the case and decided that s/he could not find twelve sane people to vote guilty and decided not to press charges.

 

[Sstrand]

Lawyer
Why would they need to limit the jury to "Sane People?". . . They could "carefully" select a panel from the voter registration list!!!

Sheldon

 

[DuneHopper]

I understand where you're coming from, using "traffic court Floyd" is a good example of someone pretending to be a real prosecutor when he only prosecutes misdemeanors. But he certainly like to brag about being a prosecutor and acts as if it adds credibility to his arguments.

Here's one attorneys opinion: In 2010, Malheur County District Attorney Dan Norris said "personally, I find it insulting when Sen. Prozanski, who at best prosecuted low-level felonies years ago in the Lane County District Attorney's Office and who has subsequently prosecuted nothing but misdemeanors and traffic tickets, defends SB 3508 by telling voters he is a prosecutor." Reference here: Why is Senator Floyd Prozanski protecting rapists? | The Oregon Catalyst

Sorry for the trip to a different destination, just think that it's important, especially at this time when some very significant pieces of legislation are close to a decision point. This also illustrates how personal experiences and emotions can enter into a legal decisions. Those experiences may have noting to do with a specific case, but can have significant bearing regardless.

 

[Alexx1401]

I think it comes down to the fact that if they had fired, then they'd be in trouble because you can't use deadly force to protect property (unless they really were in danger of actually being run over, although as a practical matter, shooting the driver of a vehicle speeding towards you is unlikely to stop the vehicle even if you plant one right between the eyes). Thus, if the thieves sought to drive away, the couple technically could not open fire. There was a news article just a few month ago about a guy in Sammamish that got in trouble for shooting a car thief.

The other part of the equation is that even if they technically broke WA state law by simply holding the thieves at gunpoint, it may have been that the prosecutor looked at the case and decided that s/he could not find twelve sane people to vote guilty and decided not to press charges.

Yep what scares me about this most is that they chased this car down to do this. They spotted their stolen car. Blocked it in, called 911, then tried to hold the occupants at gun point. One of them (driver) ran off and they wisely let him. So this time it worked. The risk here is if the others in the car had not been willing to just sit there. If they had started a gun fight or even if one had just approached them with a weapon of some kind. Sure they can say they were at risk, they were. Problem is few can shoot anywhere near as well as they talk they can. That's shooting paper at a range. What happens when they try this in public? Stray round hits "wrong target" then fun starts. They chose to start the confrontation here. They were not car jacked. They stumbled onto the car and initiated something from too much TV. This time it went well. They risked a ruined life to play this out over a stolen car. Now of course many will what if this to death bringing up all kinds of situations that have nothing to do with this one. Life in danger? shoot. This one the couple went looking for and they got lucky this time.

 

[Alexx1401]

Lawyer
Why would they need to limit the jury to "Sane People?". . . They could "carefully" select a panel from the voter registration list!!!

Sheldon

LOL, yep here they went to DOL roles because they could not get enough off voter rolls. Last time I was on duty it was amazing to watch. I almost ended up on a VERY high profile murder case. I got one potential juror tossed from the place. Probably did her a favor as they probably have her on the never call back list. If I had not gone to judge over her though she might have ended up on a panel. Scary to see what they draw from when you are hanging out with them for hours.

 

[Hang-Man]

Lawyer
Why would they need to limit the jury to "Sane People?". . . They could "carefully" select a panel from the voter registration list!!!

Sheldon

I suppose they could as long as it was NOT a democRAT list Of the Dead, but as we have seen, the dead have been helpful to Obamy and the Hildo, Hehe, just not helpful enough THANK GOD. The Judges who have called me in for jury duty know Exactly what I think of the Oregon Kangaroo Courts. Jury annulment and all that Honest "stuff" has no place in their court so I was told.

 

[BroncoFan]

I am a cop but I don't play one on TV. Teach CHL, Defensive pistol, Refuse to be a victim classes, and probably shoot an average of 250 rds a week.
(I have a range in my back yard Merica!) Your CHL Instructor was right but without the context in which he/she/it gave you the info, I'm not sure they took the right path to get there. The earlier posters basically stating that "you could doesn't mean you should" are right on. Brandishing is not in and of itself deadly physical force, but you just introduced a deadly (not dangerous) weapon to a situation that may or may not have been justified. You get the wrong DA, or the now "victim's" attorney when (not if) they sue you civilly and you are toast (even if you "win"). Many moons ago that great American Philospoher and Warrior Poet OFA Dan (Oregon Firearms Academy) once taught the seven places you don't want to wind up: Criminal court, civil court, hospital, morgue, poor house, talking doctor, newspaper (I now add an eighth: YouTube).
Before a person ever straps on a hog leg, they need to consider and know when and when not to display and use their firearm. Self defense is just that "self" defense. One last quote...from the movie Cop Land. What Ray Liotta's character told Sylvester Stallone's character holds true..."...being right doesn't make you bulletproof Freddie!"
"Carry" on...

 

[DuneHopper]

There is this neat modern invention called a cell phone and it has this ability to dial 911.
Why they did call thats what they should have done and then followed the driver not raise the level of
public collateral.
When I read this I get why they did it, however this is not your home, or your drive way even; its a private business and public throughway . And you are doing this for property, that is most likely insured ?

I want to go back and address the public collateral here, when and how did they think they had that right to defend property? Was it poor training, watching to many Dirty Harry movies ?
This was in a school zone a game going on, a MC'ds with families around no doubt and you decide thats a great place to raise the stakes ? And thats what a anti-liberal DA or LE would see.

This is the crap that gives antis ammunition to require more training.
I am not trying to play monday morning quarterback, common sense and situational awareness would tell you this was a bad place to play Starky and Hutch ( the series not the movie the movie sucked ).


I did not approve of the actions taken and how , seems anyone with a brain would have chosen ten other options that were allot more acceptable and did not put the public at risk.

 

[jrd541280]

Yeah, that coulda gone south real quick had the perp got out and started shooting instead of running. Legal or not a crowded parking lot is not the place to play cop. They did have car blocked in, no?