Need Advice for B-I-L Whose Head Isn't Right

[anonEmouse]

Completely understandable write up.

If I had one different thought over what has already been said, its.

Have you ever watched his hands outside of handling firearms? Do his hands shake doing other things?

I only ask this as differing than the usual advice, that and you mentioned he is +60 and has had a career of playing ball, which could lead to hand issues. My dad worked on completes his whole career, last time we were able to shoot together, his hands were not as stable as I recall them in years past. He is also +60.

Good thought. However, no, they don't shake. Mine do, which is why I shoot two-handed.

 

[anonEmouse]

I wont teach a newbe to shoot until they demonstrate to me the have done some reading on use of force laws. I tell people to buy and read Andrew Brancas book. If i felt someone isnt willing to at least have a basic understanding of the laws I wouldnt encourage them to carry a gun...

Not really an option in this case. I came late to see the situation and now it seems best to try to help him rather than abandon him. I may be his best chance to stay out of trouble.

 

[P7M13]

Keep taking him. He will figure it out. Or not.
Good on you for trying, but the 2nd Amendment gives him the right. You help imbue the wisdom.

 

[Koda]

Not really an option in this case. I came late to see the situation and now it seems best to try to help him rather than abandon him. I may be his best chance to stay out of trouble.

Your choice but not what I would do. What you originally wrote was very concerning. The legal side is just as important as the skillset side, the two are one in regard to carrying.

 

[Lazyfaire]

My initial question would be "Does he take medication for his anxiety?"
Question 2 - "Does this stress manifest itself in other ways?"

If he had no gun, what would he do if someone broke into his house at night? Can he attack/apply force to an intruder? How would he react to that stress?

Maybe he should have bear spray available instead.

Wants to have it available in California?

Good luck with your situation.

 

[deadeye]

Maybe next time you go to the range you should take a pistol similar to what he has but in a smaller caliber so he isnt starting out worrying about the recoil. Many people start with a 22 and work their way up after first getting the basics down. This should alleviate a fair amount of his anxiety especially after firing just a few rounds compared to your last trip. Maybe even just use a 22 rifle to get him past the super anxious newbie gun owner bit.

 

[anonEmouse]

Several of the latter suggestions I have already addressed previously, especially in regard to responsibility and judgment being the primary focus. They are the primary reason I started this discussion. I didn't come face to face with the issue until we went to the range. I don't mean just his shakes and anxiety over handling a gun. I'm referring to his apparent fear-based thinking, as I suspect is at the root of this. While there are those who advocate watching someone close to them fail from a safe distance, others are more willing to at least try to prevent that failure from happening. For me to be able to look at myself in the mirror I need to have tried to keep him from it.

I have asked for recommendations for trainers who are experienced with anxious new shooters. People who have been around long enough to have seen students like this before who might be able to help. I will attempt to dissuade him from carrying until I am able to find such training for him.

 

[DirectDrive]

I'd suggest that he get some professional training.
A trainer that can take a lifetime non gun guy and make him a confident gun toter.
While I like the P320 design, for this shooter I would have encouraged something with a manual safety , like a S&W Shield.
I would not mention the manual safety thing to him, because that might add to his burden.

 

[Xaevian]

He doesn't have any road rage issues right?

It is a mental state issue. Using driving as an example, it is a very dangerous activity, and yet your BIL is able to do so, probably without so much as a second thought. I am sure he knows the rules around driving, and the danger as well, yet he can do it. Maybe ask him how he is able to do that without trouble, ponder on it for a while, and apply the same principals to carrying and using a firearm.

There are lots of tricks that help with this kind of thing, and familiarity is just one of them. Formal training can be counterproductive due to the added stresses of trying to impress, getting it right, frustration, and having an audience. Some other things that might work are talking to himself while shooting, focusing on each step while doing them, self reflecting/talking about his performance, focusing on breathing before during and after, trying not to clench his jaw or other muscles. Hard to say what might help without knowing him personally and being there with you both.

He can get over it, but it will take patience, self discovery, and a guiding hand.

 

[oremike]

Sounds to me like what he really needs is to go shooting alot to get comfortable with his firearm and to get away from the self defence only aspect. Next question, when did you become a shrink? Lastly I have a tremor in my left side and am still a competitive shooter though to be honest I do now shoot at bigger targets, bowling pins being my current favorite. Sounds like he has the drive and desire to work thru this to me. Encouragement might go a long ways here.

 

[P7M13]

So, how many here agree with Red Flag laws? This thread comes dangerously close to supporting said laws.

 

[Knobgoblin]

^^^^

Nah , I don't see all that.

 

[Stomper]

All the prior great advise notwithstanding, and the incredible patience and compassion of the OP acknowledged, I'll say what needs to be said, and I suspect more than half of those who posted here prior are too nice to say…

Some people's brains and mentality are about the equivalent to a Picasso painting (that is to say, an overrated mess on canvass), to which the great modern-day "standup philosopher", Ron White succinctly addressed the issue of "fixing" such people…..

 

[Bobbygun]

What I'm seeing is a lot of chronophobia in this thread. SIXTY is NOT old I tell you!!! It's NOT!

 

[FourTeeFive]

My wife was pretty nervous (anxious?) about shooting a pistol for the first time a number of years ago. She was stressed about keeping all the safety rules in mind, getting used to the recoil, etc. Subsequent range sessions went better. What really helped her get comfortable was a day long class where she went through about 250 rounds, some of them rapid-fire (which isn't allowed at our local indoor range). Since then she has been much more comfortable shooting guns. She has had her carry permit for a few years but still doesn't feel comfortable carrying. I think that will require some more advanced courses.

As a side note she's smart enough to respect guns and know her limits, and I'm smart enough to know that it is far better for someone else to teach your spouse something than yourself.

I've taken a few good concealed carry and lethal force classes and all of them were quite good at helping even the slowest person understand when an when not to use deadly force. Your BIL would do well to take one of the more comprehensive courses from a reputable instructor.

 

[trunner]

Several of the latter suggestions I have already addressed previously, especially in regard to responsibility and judgment being the primary focus. They are the primary reason I started this discussion. I didn't come face to face with the issue until we went to the range. I don't mean just his shakes and anxiety over handling a gun. I'm referring to his apparent fear-based thinking, as I suspect is at the root of this. While there are those who advocate watching someone close to them fail from a safe distance, others are more willing to at least try to prevent that failure from happening. For me to be able to look at myself in the mirror I need to have tried to keep him from it.

It sounds like your BIL may be a person genuinely scared of guns. Many people today seem have an irrational fear of guns, based on little or no direct experience with them. Knowing some such people (not the noise, not the recoil, since they haven't shot one, just "afraid of them"), they seem to believe a gun might discharge at any time, in any direction, etc.

Do you think some dry fire practice with a training system like MantisX, or similar, might help settle him down? Maybe let him get used to handling the firearm, manipulating it, and sending laser beams down range in a private, safe and supportive setting before venturing to the range again. He might also experience the satisfaction of mastering safe handling and seeing improvement in his dry fire performance. FWIW, I've taken people to the range who were much more fearful of the peripheral noise and goings-on than their own shooting.

Good on you for being such an available and supportive family member. Good luck!

 

[OldBroad44]

Several of the latter suggestions I have already addressed previously, especially in regard to responsibility and judgment being the primary focus. They are the primary reason I started this discussion. I didn't come face to face with the issue until we went to the range. I don't mean just his shakes and anxiety over handling a gun. I'm referring to his apparent fear-based thinking, as I suspect is at the root of this. While there are those who advocate watching someone close to them fail from a safe distance, others are more willing to at least try to prevent that failure from happening. For me to be able to look at myself in the mirror I need to have tried to keep him from it.

I have asked for recommendations for trainers who are experienced with anxious new shooters. People who have been around long enough to have seen students like this before who might be able to help. I will attempt to dissuade him from carrying until I am able to find such training for him.

I think just about any competent well-rounded professional training would help of the sort designed for people aimed at getting CHPs as its likely to include much discussion of when it is and isn't appropriate to use lethal force and the likely legal implications of misuse. You can talk with possible trainers nearby by phone and find one that emphasizes these aspects.

I agree with the comment that for the time being he carry bear spray. And tell him that until he knows a lot more he is more likely to shoot someone inappropriately or have the gun taken away from him and used against him than to solve a problem optimally by carrying a gun.

 

[dangerranger60]

Several of the latter suggestions I have already addressed previously, especially in regard to responsibility and judgment being the primary focus. They are the primary reason I started this discussion. I didn't come face to face with the issue until we went to the range. I don't mean just his shakes and anxiety over handling a gun. I'm referring to his apparent fear-based thinking, as I suspect is at the root of this. While there are those who advocate watching someone close to them fail from a safe distance, others are more willing to at least try to prevent that failure from happening. For me to be able to look at myself in the mirror I need to have tried to keep him from it.

I have asked for recommendations for trainers who are experienced with anxious new shooters. People who have been around long enough to have seen students like this before who might be able to help. I will attempt to dissuade him from carrying until I am able to find such training for him.

I think you will find a lot of professional trainers would shy away from someone like you describe. The mistakes he makes would reflect poorly on their record. I'm not saying he should not seek out a trainer, but his fears and willingness to act on them will draw negative attention, and possibly get him put out of a class.
How willing is he to reading forums and blogs about self defense?
If he is up for it find him some situation based videos where you see the action/ and then the group discusses it. That might be helpful for him to see what other gun carriers think of the action in the video. And what the shooter did [ right, wrong, or could have done better].
John Correa has a Youtube channel called ASP, that is mostly just that.
Defensive Carry.com is a forum for just those kinds of after action conversations .
Maybe he needs to see what others that have been carrying for a lifetime think. and at the same time keep working on his gun handling.
encourage him to carry the gun at home , unloaded for a week or two till it becomes second nature. Get him to clean the gun from sweat each day until the manipulations become less of an anxiety trigger.
Then after a couple weeks plan another range trip to see if that has helped. Good Luck, DR

 

[OldBroad44]

I think you will find a lot of professional trainers would shy away from someone like you describe. The mistakes he makes would reflect poorly on their record. I'm not saying he should not seek out a trainer, but his fears and willingness to act on them will draw negative attention, and possibly get him put out of a class.
How willing is he to reading forums and blogs about self defense?
If he is up for it find him some situation based videos where you see the action/ and then the group discusses it. That might be helpful for him to see what other gun carriers think of the action in the video. And what the shooter did [ right, wrong, or could have done better].
John Correa has a Youtube channel called ASP, that is mostly just that.
Defensive Carry.com is a forum for just those kinds of after action conversations .
Maybe he needs to see what others that have been carrying for a lifetime think. and at the same time keep working on his gun handling.
encourage him to carry the gun at home , unloaded for a week or two till it becomes second nature. Get him to clean the gun from sweat each day until the manipulations become less of an anxiety trigger.
Then after a couple weeks plan another range trip to see if that has helped. Good Luck, DR

I agree with most of this. However, I disagree with the idea of having someone get comfortable with carrying by carrying an unloaded gun. I think that's dangerous. It teaches the beginner to treat guns like they aren't loaded.

 

[LDmax]

Sounds to me like what he really needs is to go shooting alot to get comfortable with his firearm and to get away from the self defence only aspect.

^

It doesn't even have to be shooting. When I watch forgotten weapons, I'm enjoying the history, character, and mechanical aspects of each gun, not envisioning some adrenaline-soaked do-or-die nightmare scenario.

I like guns for more than self defense, just like I enjoy cars for more than being transported from one place to another.

Comfortable, fun shooting, and effective learning, can't happen if he only associates guns with extremely negative things. That goes for learning in general.