More Target Shooting Trouble in the forest...

[Lilhigbee]

In Oregon the fine for littering is already $6250. Stick a few of these dipschnitts with that for starters.

 

[Kristina]

Not helpful in the least to attack the forestry folks. They are working with us and will as long as we do our part. They are charged with fulfilling the ability for all folks to use the forest. We have a responsibility to practice good stewardship when we use something that belongs to all of us. So make it a practice. Take more out than you bring in, and do it every time you go up there. If you see someone leaving junk, brass or target material, offer to help remove it and put an extra bag out with the trash. If we don't police ourselves, we could see this experiment fail. Spread the word and do your part.

+1

Why blame the forestry dept (or whomever) for not taking care of this? I know we pay taxes and it is their job so it's easy to feel frustrated when we perceive they are not doing what we pay them for. But we are a group of people who take responsibility for all sorts of other things that could be left to the powers-that-be to provide: We take responsibility for our own protection and that of our families by being armed; we hunt and grow our own food; we prep for emergencies and disasters... We are the type of people that do something when something needs to be done and not cry about how Daddy isn't doing it for us. This shouldn't be any different. Yeah, it's frustrating that people dump their garbage in the woods and shoot it up and it will always happen forever and ever, but one person picking up after themselves can lead to more doing the same. And when you get thirty people together to clean up, well, we can get more done in a few hours that the forestry dept can do in a month.

...sorry, pre-coffee ranting ...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's easy to get discouraged or whatever, but I really feel that the actions of one person can effect change in many, that setting a good example and getting the word out, as individuals and as a group, is still the best way to help combat behavior we don't want to see.

 

[Cogs]

Fines are a good deterrent. We just need to catch em in the act.

This info is from the Washington State Department of Ecology website...

Between 1998 and 2005 the Department of Ecology (Ecology) conducted several focus groups to explore knowledge and attitudes towards littering among key audiences. Many of these focus groups were comprised of people who admitted to littering behavior. When participants were asked what would convince them to not litter, a clear theme emerged. "Knowing I will be caught and fined," was the number one deterrent to littering. Hearing what the fines are was new information for the research participants.

While many support the use of enforcement, studies show that few jurisdictions are able to enforce littering laws effectively for two reasons:

• Lack of personnel available for such a low priority issue.
• The fact that it is difficult to "catch" offenders in the act.

At the state level, minimum fines are set in state law. As the violation is processed, fees or assessments may be added. This could increase the amount the violator must actually pay. The table below shows littering penalties as outlined in state law, and the actual resulting penalty.

Littering an amount greater than a cubic foot but less than a cubic yard....

Up to $1000 and up to 90 days in jail (misdemeanor2) - RCW 9A.20.021(3)
plus
litter cleanup restitution of twice the actual cleanup cost, not less than $50 RCW 70.93.060(2)(b) - amended​

Littering an amount greater than a cubic yard...

Up to $5000 and/or up to 1 year in jail (gross misdemeanor2) - RCW 9A.20.021(2)
plus
litter cleanup restitution of twice the actual cleanup cost, not less than $100 RCW 70.93.060(2)(c)​

I think I'll start promoting awareness of the fines for Oregon & Washington. Also offer a warning that responsible shooters are watching.

 

[Cogs]

+1

Why blame the forestry dept (or whomever) for not taking care of this? I know we pay taxes and it is their job so it's easy to feel frustrated when we perceive they are not doing what we pay them for. But we are a group of people who take responsibility for all sorts of other things that could be left to the powers-that-be to provide: We take responsibility for our own protection and that of our families by being armed; we hunt and grow our own food; we prep for emergencies and disasters... We are the type of people that do something when something needs to be done and not cry about how Daddy isn't doing it for us. This shouldn't be any different. Yeah, it's frustrating that people dump their garbage in the woods and shoot it up and it will always happen forever and ever, but one person picking up after themselves can lead to more doing the same. And when you get thirty people together to clean up, well, we can get more done in a few hours that the forestry dept can do in a month.

...sorry, pre-coffee ranting ...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's easy to get discouraged or whatever, but I really feel that the actions of one person can effect change in many, that setting a good example and getting the word out, as individuals and as a group, is still the best way to help combat behavior we don't want to see.

Well said Kristina!

 

[Republican]

The state should set up firing ranges in the more heavily used parts. That's what they do here. Most are unattended but prisoners mow and pick up trash. It seems to be a necessary evil now a days.

 

[Timbertodd]

I wonder if there is a way the state, Washington county or Tillamook Forest could allocate funds for a dedicated employee for a 2-3 month program. This employee travels between the areas say N. Wolf Creek, Salmonberry, Louisignot and monitors and fines to the fullest extent possible these people. Over that time frame I would think enough fines would be issued to help fund the program and put the word out that enough is enough. Maybe have the number this employee can be reached at posted at the sites so he can be quickly notified. I know its kind of a pipe dream, the state definitely has its pet programs and when it comes to firearms, money is put towards getting them out of our hands.

 

[Cogs]

I wonder if there is a way the state, Washington county or Tillamook Forest could allocate funds for a dedicated employee for a 2-3 month program. This employee travels between the areas say N. Wolf Creek, Salmonberry, Louisignot and monitors and fines to the fullest extent possible these people. Over that time frame I would think enough fines would be issued to help fund the program and put the word out that enough is enough. Maybe have the number this employee can be reached at posted at the sites so he can be quickly notified. I know its kind of a pipe dream, the state definitely has its pet programs and when it comes to firearms, money is put towards getting them out of our hands.

Where do I sign up? Love it!

 

[Cogs]

I go out often just to cruise the roads looking for trashed places and illegal stuff. It really is hard to catch someone in the act. The foliage is so thick, you can't find a remote place to hide out and observe. If you drive up to them and then see something illegal, you're too close and it could easily become a bad confrontation situation.

You really need to pick a popular spot, position yourself with a good distant view, have the appropriate recording equipment (camera gear W/strong zoom & tripod), and wait. Need to start recording when someone arrives, capture what they unload and what they reload. If they start unloading TV's, microwaves, couches, it's obvious they are dumping and you could call LE right then.

Law Enforcement and forest agencies don't have the time and resources for that. Perhaps we need to be their eyes and ears.

 

[Timbertodd]

Law enforcement and Forest service are under staffed to dedicate someone and it does need to be a joint effort between the shooting community and authorities. As a civilian out shooting you have to be very careful about confrontations especially when firearms are involved. I wish there was available grant money to help fund stepped up patrols and monitoring and put some serious teeth into it. I agree Bill its very difficult to nail someone redhanded unless they are stupid enough to leave their name and address onsite. I have come across a couple of those stupid enough though. Maybe we could have authorities start posting a list of violators names with the date caught and the fines levied at the sites to show that you could be next.

 

[Member 34319]

Late start to this thread.

Needless to say I'm a little concerned.

I have not been so closely volunteering this year with the ODF, especially with the forester who alerted @Cogs of the problem escalating.

I'm sorry to play devils advocate here, but I'm saddened by a lot of the responses.

I find it very disheartening sometimes working with @Cogs with TNL and the true lack of concern by so many within the recreational shooting community.

A lot here seriously think these people are not linked into our group still. They are us. We are them. Naming them something different doesn't change things.

Something needs to change. Thinking it won't is just plain dumb.

We need to get more involved. We need to donate money to those that are trying to do more. We need to have the balls to walk up to something wrong and call them out on their wrong.

I know @Cogs and I come here often looking for input. However, honestly, I'm kind of done looking for input. I know what most here are going to say, I have already heard it all.

What I really want to hear is.

Okay, Reno how the hell can I help.

 

[edslhead]

I wonder if a lot of the dumping is by low income people that cant or wont afford the dump fees . Would maybe help if they could get some sort of break at the local dumps. Just a thought.My buddy just moved into a new place and spent over $150 at the Vanc dump.Thats quite a bit for some people.

 

[TCOV]

In my area most of the garbage/appliances are dumped by people who are avoiding the fees at the landfill or transfer stations. The people who want to shoot come along later and shoot whats already dumped on site. Our county has a chain gang that they bring around every month or so and clean up the worst spots. Cameras were tried but were stolen. Lot of criminal activity at night. I don't think the mess will go away short of road closure but some of the mainlines are required to remain open. A lot of the side spurs are being burmed and closed.

 

[Cogs]

I wonder if a lot of the dumping is by low income people that cant or wont afford the dump fees . Would maybe help if they could get some sort of break at the local dumps. Just a thought.My buddy just moved into a new place and spent over $150 at the Vanc dump.Thats quite a bit for some people.

I think a lot is dumped and is not from shooters. Happens at night. If there are refrigerators, tv's and appliances, even cars & trailers, it probably happened at night and by non shooters. Next day, shooters show up and think it's fun to shoot it. We get tagged for it.

I recently took a load to the dump in Washougal and was floored at how much 1 pickup bed cost. I suppose it wouldn't have been a surprise if I'd gone a few times prior but I see it has really gone up.

If people can't afford it, they need to seek ways of getting help with it. Simply taking it to the forest is not an acceptable alternative, no matter what your income is. They need to realize the penalty is more than the cost of dumping on public land.

 

[thorborg]

Not all trash dumped in the forest is left by shooters and does a disservice to gun owners to promote that concept. (shame on them)
While all trash may seem fair game when shooting, and so may appear All trash was brought in to shoot because of the bullet holes, tons of stuff are dumped by those too cheap or unwilling to pay the high cost of disposing of their garbage, especially large items. (shame on them)
Thousands of road signs are shot up which were not placed there by the shooting vermin among us. (shame on them)
Make no mistake, nearly anyone can have a gun and will ultimately want to shoot it. If they are of low morals, will do crappy things so their actions will water down the pool of gun owners who feel they are responsible. I understand that, but one of my biggest peeves in the human race is the constant need to box people into groups (shame on them) which ultimately waters down the response or bastardizes the resolution of an issue with an outcome unsatisfactory for all. This I feel comes from the lack of work ethics and lazy response of a problem forced on some who are empowered to try correct an unwanted issue and put it behind then at all cost to move on; "well we will just shut it down and nobody can play there". (shame on them)
Promoting the notion that trash in the woods are primarily from shooters will only accelerate our loss of access and leave shooters with the soiled reputation. Fingers pointed and solutions for, may be best directed towards the same uncaring and shameless low life vermin that dumps their trash and buts out the windows along the highways or even the self righteous among the ATV clan. (shame on them)
The hypocrisy of any government and civilian entity who closes the forest always tout things like the environmental impact as the reason they are keeping people out, then, in one to 20 years will go into the same area, first with poisons and bulldozers to rid the underbrush then come back in a few months nearly totally logging it, (except for the corridors so the driving public will be mainly unaware.) This is hypocritical to me, to tell me our presence in the woods (trash or not) has more impact on nature than poison and logging.
Besides the total destruction of soils and flora, it is not the first time nor will it be the last, I have tripped over oil cans or half buried and rusting steel cables while hunting.
I feel, that unless it is a national wilderness area,(already established, we have enough!) preventing all logging, then we should have complete access to our lands, which will be recycled through logging ever 20 to 40 years anyway.
From speed pumps to closed roads, I am weary of always paying for the sins of others which never seems to stop or even bother the sinner.

 

[Cogs]

We may be able to get a dumpster in the woods but it's going to cost. I'm proposing that we do a test month or two and see how the program goes. We lock it up and only give the combination to those who sign up for it. No other public is allowed to use it. Only for shooting site trash.

I was trying to get the dumpster and disposal donated, however, it may not work out that way. If we have to pay for it, we'll need some funding donations in advance. I'll post a new thread about it if ODF okays us to proceed.

I know there have been several questions of where can we dump the site trash. This could be a way to do it.

 

[The Heretic]

It isn't just shooters, it is people - mostly from the city - who simply do not care, and/or who think it is okay to dump stuff "out in the woods". I see it all the time; tires, couches, etc., all kinds of garbage, dumped along the roads, into ditches and gullies once you get outside the city limits. I saw a lot of this in the Tri-Cities and other desert areas - shooting up signs and so on.

What can be done? If you can catch them in the act, then great - a few examples of heavy fines publicized may make people think twice. Maybe publicizing the fact people dump junk in the woods would maybe guilt trip a few or make them think twice. But it is really hard to catch the offenders - maybe hide some trail cams in safe spots to catch them in the act?

Sadly, it isn't just people from the cities who do this, but those of us who live rural, generally dump trash on our own property, not others (I have seen a lot of this too). The PO of my property had that bad habit - a bit; he had a drinking problem but tried to hide it, especially from his wife. I am still picking up his trash and bottles. For a guy who was all about keeping the woods from being cut down and 'wild', he sure didn't think about the broken bottles he left littered about, plus all the plastic landscaping crap (containers of potted plants, wood with nails in it, screens, plastic sheeting and a bunch of other junk I am continually encountering and cleaning up).

 

[The Heretic]

We may be able to get a dumpster in the woods but it's going to cost. I'm proposing that we do a test month or two and see how the program goes. We lock it up and only give the combination to those who sign up for it. No other public is allowed to use it. Only for shooting site trash.

It will get shot full of holes by those who shoot up everything else they find in those shooting spots. I have no doubt of this. Do you think those who bring the trash out and those who shoot it will hesitate trying to see if their gun will penetrate the dumpster metal? It won't last a week in good weather - especially if it is there over a weekend.

I would much rather have a solution that makes an example out of those who do the bad deed. There has to be some shooting spots where this is a problem and cams can be placed in a hidden spot safe from stray shots that can capture the actions of the people who do this crap.

 

[Cogs]

It will get shot full of holes by those who shoot up everything else they find in those shooting spots. I have no doubt of this. Do you think those who bring the trash out and those who shoot it will hesitate trying to see if their gun will penetrate the dumpster metal? It won't last a week in good weather - especially if it is there over a weekend.

I would much rather have a solution that makes an example out of those who do the bad deed. There has to be some shooting spots where this is a problem and cams can be placed in a hidden spot safe from stray shots that can capture the actions of the people who do this crap.

Oh, it'll be just fine. We're not locating it in the lonely part of the woods all by itself. It would either be at a campsite with the other dumpsters or at a gravel yard. Might even have a couple locations. Need to put it where we know it'll be okay and easy for us to get to. It's another detail to hash out with ODF.

 

[Republican]

Maybe people will just shoot at the dumpsters and leave the old washing machines at home.

 

[Cogs]

So, as I go back and follow the bunny trails throughout this conversation, I gather we all agree that something needs to be done to put a stop to the bad people giving the good people a bad name and putting recreational target shooting on public land in jeopardy. We, at Trash No Land (Brian, Aaron, Lisa and I), are poised to help and truly desiring to make a positive difference in recreational shooting.

From this thread, I see we all seem to be of one accord in the desire for more law enforcement, we all think it would be great to catch the trash'ters and see penalties applied while making an example of them, we are all aware of the limited Law Enforcement resources available, we all see the impact of irresponsible and disrespectful behavior in the name of target shooting and we all agree we need to do something.

What I'm proposing to you is a combination of multiple efforts to effect our kind of recreation. To be effective, you will need to support Trash No Land. Because, together, we can make a change. As a nonprofit we are dedicated to making a positive difference in recreational target shooting, toward the critical goal of protecting and preserving our public lands.

Education and awareness of rules, ethics, stewardship and safety are the foundations of our mission. We promote awareness and seek solutions surrounding responsible shooting on public lands through our website and social media, at special events and sporting goods stores, and from printed information, photos, and videos. We lead clean-ups at shooting sites in the forests of Washington and Oregon, assist forest management agencies in the development of quality shooting lanes and enhance our message through extensive volunteer efforts to keep these lands clean and safe.

To provide free resources and volunteer preservation opportunities in our communities, these endeavors require a great deal of time and expense, often which are funded by our team members. But it's not enough.

Most all this requires money. Thankfully, we now have a tax deductible nonprofit organization to help us move forward toward the critical goal of protecting and preserving our public lands.

It boils down to; if you support Trash No Land, we can make some headway on this problem. If not, we'll have to accept what ever our public land management agencies decide to do. We have a 'dog in the fight'. I'd rather see that our dog wins!

Any contribution of support funding, hardware, software, volunteering for special committees, planning help, IT help and administration help is welcome. Should you have questions about our cause, or would like to speak with us further about our impact on our community you can reach me, Bill Cogley, at 360/ 713-8304 or email to [email protected] . Your support of our efforts is very much appreciated!

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Thank You!