More Target Shooting Trouble in the forest...

[ob1]

if game wardens can hide out in the dunes and ticket a dad for helping his young child dig a clam, they should be able to hide out in some of the more active shooting spots and bust these jack holes for littering. They could even raise the fine for dumping to make it worthwhile.

You don't generally take your life into your hands giving a clam digger a ticket. We are not just talking about sloppy, stupid, uncaring trash types here. Some of those that show up out in the woods are literally criminals on there own right.

Groups of gun toting thugs... gang banging city vermin coming out to try out their drive-by skills. A little horizontal pistol shooting and it's time to finish off the tequila bottles with a little "hood style" AK skeet shooting. I've seen it happen more and more in our area. I won't even go to most of the areas with just my wife now. You practically need a backup covering you to be able to concentrate on your shooting.
No....these guys are not the pack out your trash types and never will be. The people who do aren't the problem. This is a spin off of what's happening in the cities, and is no doubt going to get worse thanks to our inept politicians.

If you were the warden/ranger tasked with doing the "hide and pounce" out in these areas by yourself, would you be thrilled ? You would need multiple officers just for safety concerns. The manpower required alone would probably mean some type of temporary grant for funding.

Then you would get the inevitable.... " $$$ for littering enforcement ? Just post the areas, no more shooting "

 

[Cogs]

You don't generally take your life into your hands giving a clam digger a ticket. We are not just talking about sloppy, stupid, uncaring trash types here. Some of those that show up out in the woods are literally criminals on there own right.

Groups of gun toting thugs... gang banging city vermin coming out to try out their drive-by skills. A little horizontal pistol shooting and it's time to finish off the tequila bottles with a little "hood style" AK skeet shooting. I've seen it happen more and more in our area. I won't even go to most of the areas with just my wife now. You practically need a backup covering you to be able to concentrate on your shooting.
No....these guys are not the pack out your trash types and never will be. The people who do aren't the problem. This is a spin off of what's happening in the cities, and is no doubt going to get worse thanks to our inept politicians.

If you were the warden/ranger tasked with doing the "hide and pounce" out in these areas by yourself, would you be thrilled ? You would need multiple officers just for safety concerns. The manpower required alone would probably mean some type of temporary grant for funding.

Then you would get the inevitable.... " $$$ for littering enforcement ? Just post the areas, no more shooting "

Yep. A dangerous situation. Good thoughts.

 

[The Heretic]

You don't generally take your life into your hands giving a clam digger a ticket. We are not just talking about sloppy, stupid, uncaring trash types here. Some of those that show up out in the woods are literally criminals on there own right.

Groups of gun toting thugs... gang banging city vermin coming out to try out their drive-by skills. A little horizontal pistol shooting and it's time to finish off the tequila bottles with a little "hood style" AK skeet shooting. I've seen it happen more and more in our area. I won't even go to most of the areas with just my wife now. You practically need a backup covering you to be able to concentrate on your shooting.
No....these guys are not the pack out your trash types and never will be. The people who do aren't the problem. This is a spin off of what's happening in the cities, and is no doubt going to get worse thanks to our inept politicians.

If you were the warden/ranger tasked with doing the "hide and pounce" out in these areas by yourself, would you be thrilled ? You would need multiple officers just for safety concerns. The manpower required alone would probably mean some type of temporary grant for funding.

Then you would get the inevitable.... " $$$ for littering enforcement ? Just post the areas, no more shooting "

This is why I would say put out some trail cams that would be positioned to be likely to catch them in the act and their license plates, then run a check on them and deploy appropriate force. If they are truly bad guys, they probably have warrants. If they are felons, then you might have vid evidence on them possessing a gun. If they are not bad guys, you send them a $6250 citation in the mail with a printout of their license plate and them shooting/dumping.

 

[Timbertodd]

High altitude drone surveillance. Where's FordPrefect?

 

[ob1]

This is why I would say put out some trail cams that would be positioned to be likely to catch them in the act and their license plates,

Yeah, agreed... a good identifiable is always a plus {if the cameras aren't found and shot to hell }
As long as the plate actually comes back to someone or the photo of the perps {in the act} are recognized by LE, then you are just looking at the investment of some investigative man hours.

BTW...This reminds me of some of the comments made by @RVTECH and others about the fact that this is more than a problem caused just by shooters.

I agree that this is a group effort. Somebody doesn't haul an appliance out to a shooting area just to shoot it. They are taking it out there because they want to get rid of it and don't want to pay the fee's to dispose of it legally. It's a natural choice to take it out to the woods where it is less likely to be caught dumping it. This is obviously the dumpers offense, but it is also because it is getting expensive to many to dispose of things.
Go to Metro to dispose of a tire, mattress, appliance etc. ...they hit you with an environmental "fee"and a minimum "tip fee". It's going to cost 20-30 bucks to get rid of a damn tire. A lot of people are simply not going to pay that, period. It's almost like the garbage business is connected with organized crime or something {oh...well, moving on...}

So here we are back at the shooting area and Buford Givash!te has just dropped off his avocado green Maytag. Is he now going to pop a cold one and start blasting away with pappy's scattergun ? Nope, he know's he's just done an illegal thing and he ain't gonna be stickin around...see ya Buford.
Now enter somebody who brings some pop cans but just can't resist putting a few .22's into that Maytag. Tomorrow somebody will be out with there with an AR and a box of steel core who just has to see if it will penetrate that Maytag. Then comes a .300 win mag'er who just knows it will penetrate.

Next week a Ranger makes it out here and see's the Avocado green carnage...assumption..."those damn target shooters are causing this stuff".

 

[RVTECH]

This reminds me of some of the comments made by @RVTECH and others about the fact that this is more than a problem caused just by shooters.

SOME of the problems are directly shooter related - one spot I use often is one of these - ya know the left over targets on boxes, pieces of plywood, plastic bottles etc. BUT since I have been thinking about this from reading the thread I believe MORE is simply dump off related and the shooting is a by-product of it.

 

[Koda]

I go out often just to cruise the roads looking for trashed places and illegal stuff. It really is hard to catch someone in the act. The foliage is so thick, you can't find a remote place to hide out and observe. If you drive up to them and then see something illegal, you're too close and it could easily become a bad confrontation situation.

it hasn't been that hard for me. Every time I visit Salmonberry I drive by and see someone shooting at one of the spots Ive called out here as unsafe (no back stop). Your right thought it could too easily become confrontational to say something to them... I'm not a LEO so I keep driving by. The last time I visited the new Wold Creek lanes, 2 other groups pulled up and set up without asking us (guess.... lane 4) and neither of them had target stands. One guy sighting in his new AR just started shooting at anything left out there. The lane was "relatively" clean but if I recall there was a propped up pallet or wood panel and some other shiny thing that was used to shoot at.

More and more new people are buying guns and many don't know better. Ive brought it up before, but the gun stores should be handing out your Trash No Land flyers with every gun or ammo purchase. A free 'public land shooting' safety class should be available too. And another thought I have is these new shooters seem to always assume there will be something to shoot at out there. A free blueprint for a simple and reusable target stand made from cheap 1x2 furring strips at Home Depot would be nice to hand out to them. I think if half of the new shooters had more awareness it would help.... not so certain of the other half...

and I somewhat agree that we shouldn't take the blame for illegal dumping just because their trash has bullet holes in it. There are many "new" shooters, there are some irresponsible shooters and there are just vandals and dumpers out there. But I digress, we may not be able to remove that stigma being attached to us.

 

[Cogs]

Koda, you need to be on staff at TNL! I like your ideas!

The brochures in gun stores is relative to the funds we raise to get them printed. 1000 brochures costs $275. Less when we order bigger volumes. We've run out of brochures and, despite efforts to raise more money, have not been able to get more printed. To get coverage throughout the Portland Metro area, we need at least 5000 or more copies. People think it's a great idea but few support it.

I love the safety class idea and have arranged locations for it, however, have not had an NRA RSO volunteer for it yet. Actually, we need at least 2 RSO's in order to keep the class going on a regular basis. I'd love to have the funds and just pay someone, but that's not a reality right now.

I have a feeling that most people think "since you're a nonprofit, you must have money". Not so. We do what we can without funds or we chip in our own cash (mostly our own!). That limits us as to how big of projects & programs we can do. Yes, we have some bigger projects and programs but we have to sit on them until we have the funding to proceed. Grants are not always appropriate for some of our ideas.

We do a lot of talking, complaining, griping and keyboard exercising about this problem, but it seems few are willing to step up and put their boots on the ground for it. We need folks to come on board, claim an idea to work on, help develop a plan of action, recruit some help and run with it.

If I didn't have to work full time, I'd be out there full time working to better recreational shooting. For now, I work on this every evening and weekend. Still, without funds for programs, I'm limited as to what I can do.

Need some help folks!

 

[Koda]

The brochures in gun stores is relative to the funds we raise to get them printed. 1000 brochures costs $275. Less when we order bigger volumes. We've run out of brochures and, despite efforts to raise more money, have not been able to get more printed. To get coverage throughout the Portland Metro area, we need at least 5000 or more copies. People think it's a great idea but few support it.

then you need a cheaper brochure... somewhere here a long time ago I suggested that, for this reason. 1 page only, best made for black and white printing. I like your TNL borchure I really do but I knew it would be too costly. I bet you could at least double your copies for the money with a flyer optimized for cheap printing. As a bonus it can be printed on any home printer for those that want to help handing out a few at a time outdoors or even keeping a brochure bin stocked at the new signs at Wolf creek.

 

[Koda]

I love the safety class idea and have arranged locations for it, however, have not had an NRA RSO volunteer for it yet. Actually, we need at least 2 RSO's in order to keep the class going on a regular basis. I'd love to have the funds and just pay someone, but that's not a reality right now.

why do we need a certified RSO to teach a basic public land shooting etiquette class? The Wolf Creek lanes are not NRA approved and obviously all the random spots people find out there.

 

[Cogs]

then you need a cheaper brochure... somewhere here a long time ago I suggested that, for this reason. 1 page only, best made for black and white printing. I like your TNL borchure I really do but I knew it would be too costly. I bet you could at least double your copies for the money with a flyer optimized for cheap printing. As a bonus it can be printed on any home printer for those that want to help handing out a few at a time outdoors or even keeping a brochure bin stocked at the new signs at Wolf creek.

Good idea. I'll think about a redesign.

 

[Cogs]

why do we need a certified RSO to teach a basic public land shooting etiquette class? The Wolf Creek lanes are not NRA approved and obviously all the random spots people find out there.

Mostly to give credit to the class. Thinking it's more likely to have participation if it has a creditable instructor. Perhaps I should rethink that!

 

[RVTECH]

Groups of gun toting thugs... gang banging city vermin coming out to try out their drive-by skills. A little horizontal pistol shooting and it's time to finish off the tequila bottles with a little "hood style" AK skeet shooting. I've seen it happen more and more in our area.

This is disturbing and potentially dangerous - these types care about nothing...

 

[Koda]

Mostly to give credit to the class. Thinking it's more likely to have participation if it has a creditable instructor. Perhaps I should rethink that!

perhaps but your TNL organization is about environmental impact and responsible public land shooting, not private range shooting. The class doesn't need to cover more than Col. Coopers 4 rules, but focus on public land etiquette and awareness.

A lot of new shooters aren't aware their brass needs cleaning up, or trees are not targets, or common household items are not longer legal (bottles) or how to build a simple reusable target stand... things like that.

and TNL is a certified non profit organization... like SOLVE is and has every bit as much credibility for the cause of ethical and responsible shooting on public land.

 

[Cogs]

perhaps but your TNL organization is about environmental impact and responsible public land shooting, not private range shooting. The class doesn't need to cover more than Col. Coopers 4 rules, but focus on public land etiquette and awareness.

A lot of new shooters aren't aware their brass needs cleaning up, or trees are not targets, or common household items are not longer legal (bottles) or how to build a simple reusable target stand... things like that.

and TNL is a certified non profit organization... like SOLVE is and has every bit as much credibility for the cause of ethical and responsible shooting on public land.

Precisely. Good points.

 

[Cogs]

Just in case someone here is not aware of Col. Jeff Coopers 4 Rules...

RULE 1
ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again.

RULE 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY
You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such.

RULE 3
KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER TIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
This we call the Golden Rule because its violation is responsible for about 80 percent of the firearms disasters we read about.

RULE 4
BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it. You never fire at a shadow, or a sound, or a suspected presence. You shoot only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is beyond it.

 

[CoastRange57]

Very frustrating issue for all of us. I want to reference posts # 63 and # 75 as very important to what we are talking about. I also understand the demands and calls for more enforcement. Needing to be understood is the demands that are currently place upon the LEO responsible for these areas. We as shooters are a very small segment of the recreating public in these areas. There are off road vehicle riders, mushroom pickers, swimmers, hikers, fisherman and on. All of these groups create problems for LEO and fire /ems services at some point in time, so keeping it in context as to the numbers who are out there causing problems and the number of LEO to deal with the morons is important.

When a single OSP game officer and maybe one Tillamook County SO officer each on various shifts is responsible for the areas that they are, they simply cannot be expected to cover the areas and stake out garbage dumpers. They are too busy trying to get ATV wrecks handled, some drunk beating his wife in the campground, some major car accidents and a host of other things needing LEO attention. I listen to a lot of radio traffic in a three county area and sometimes it is beyond crazy.

The major factor here is the huge number of people coming out of the metro areas into the woods for various reasons. As the populations in the metro areas increase, so will the number of people coming to these areas. Not all of these people are good people, a lot are criminals, a lot have bad intents. My wife and I used to drive the woods a lot, we still do some, but prefer to have two to three vehicles of people, all well armed, but we really don't much anymore, I am just too suspicious of pretty much everybody out there.

We feel much safer over in Central Oregon, but still go in groups of at least 3 well armed people and more likely up to 10 people and 4 vehicles. It all comes down to the fact that if you want increased LEO presence and activity then the tax revenues to support them needs to be increased. ODF has limited resources to deal with this, and is not prone to closing areas to public use unless there is an extreme impact that cannot be dealt with.

Look at the current Eagle Creek Trail fire, started by some jackazz with fireworks and now is a 3,000 acre fire. You cannot prosecute stupidity, if so half the world would be in jail.

 

[Oathkeeper1775]

Non-confrontational policy in effect at our club; write down the license plates and report over the phone.

It's not worth it.

 

[CoastRange57]

Most all of us on here are law abiding citizens, and are good stewards of this earth we have been entrusted with for the time we are on this earth. We also have a decent moral compass, and a good sense of right and wrong. This is not the case with some of the users of the land. We would not even think it OK to dump garbage, not be responsible in whatever activity we were engaging in. As people who have a good moral compass, we cannot understand how others see things differently and can act on those beliefs.

For the first couple years in my loss prevention gig, I was pissed when the criminals beat me at the game. I did not think like a criminal, and it took me a bit to catch on, but I have seen a lot of criminal behavior in petty theft and some DV situations. Now I can look at people and their behavior and tell you what they are going to do. A simple conversation pretty much puts me on to what your game or play is going to be. People like this are gaming from the moment they wake until they sleep.

Trying to understand how these types of people think and act when they treat our earth this way will drive you batty. You simply are not able to formulate the same thought patterns, process and rationale to understand. Better to just try and some how hold a small portion of them accountable for something at some point in time. Changing the behavior of the masses is not going to happen.

 

[DirectDrive]

Non-confrontational policy in effect at our club; write down the license plates and report over the phone.

It's not worth it.

This ^^^
And why not pop a pic or two ?