Medford Police: Being "Proactive"

[Gunner3456]

You have a point there. I am very seldom the one to be looking for fault with LEO's. They are just people, like you and I, and they are doing a tough and usually thankless job. But in this case, with all the facts available, it is looking like over kill AT BEST.
I get that you have some insight on this case, and it seems to make you feel better about what happened.
My self, as a private citizen, with only the facts that I have, I am very concerned about what has happened so close to my home. Perhaps things like this happen all the time, and I am just now having my eyes opened to it.

If the police encounter you at your home and you've done nothing wrong, stand your ground. Don't even talk to them. If they don't have probable cause and use it to get a warrant, all they can do is try to talk to you and then they have to leave.

If on the other hand you have done something which you believe would cause a judge to issue a warrant, then you're better off going voluntarily to a psych evaluation but still keeping your mouth shut except to the psychiatrist where your statements are confidential as medical info unless a judge has them released, again for probable cause. That normally happens only if there is an arrest and usually then only if there is a trial.

Wouldn't you rather voluntarily spend some time at the hospital's psych ward and then go home, than to have an arrest warrant issued and getting taken out?

Imho this guy was treated very decently. The SWAT was just for the LEOs' possible protection, not to be used to knock the guy's house down.

The State Police, the Sheriffs' offices in both counties (joint SWAT) and the Medford Police were all worried for reasons they can't say. They all went together to make sure all was OK.

If I were in that guy's shoes, I would believe I had been treated very decently under the circumstances. I don't ever plan to get into his shoes, fwiw.

 

[Wabamm!]

For all the reasons you hate to see law enforcement or the government for that matter, step in and take away someone's right to bear arms, I have to believe this was for good reason. You do not see this happen that often, and so one must conclude that they had great intel. Though there are some officers that misuse their position to take other's rights away, this was obviously a collective decision by their department. A lot of planning goes into something like this because of safety of the officers, as well as the neighbors and the suspect. There is no way they would put that much time and resources into something like this if there was not a valid threat. My hat is off to that department and their ability to be proactive, instead reactive. Imagine what could have happened if they had just blown it off. The press's intel is not all-knowing or all-encompassing. I love guns of all kinds, but even a gun gomer could probably put two and two together that something was off here. I don't want to think about all the pain this guy may have caused several families. I hope he gets the help he needs and then enjoys his guns for the right reasons. God bless you all in these crazy times.

 

[Gunner3456]

Again, due to the cost of equipment and training we have a joint swat team which includes both the Jackson and Josephine sheriffs' depts., the State Police and multiple municipal departments.

This act by the police wasn't done in a vacuum nor was it ordered by just one person.

Again, under the circumstances this man was treaty with respect and decency.

Our sheriff (Winters) is a great guy. Some may recall that he challenged the local newspaper, saying that the names of people who have CWP should be confidential. He's very pro-2A.

 

[theglockster87]

If the guy had nothing to hide and wasn't planning anything, he should be happy that the law is actually being proactive. Too much negative light falls upon 2nd amendment rights when the bad guys shoot places up. Anyone who enjoys these rights should be grateful this actually happened. If they prevented another shooting in the workplace, good for them. If someone is thinking about shooting up the workplace while they're buying guns, maybe they should reconsider. If i got taken in because i bought multiple guns in a couple days (which i have done before) i'd tell them thanks for doing their jobs and i'd get over the minor inconvenience. I'd have the law be proactive and myself alive rather than wait around for another crazy to start busting caps or a jihadi trying to blow something up and be 6 feet under.

 

[matt_w]

Discussing news articles like this is not usually worthwhile.

I served on a grand jury awhile back for a few weeks, and I went and looked up the articles for a lot of the cases that I heard (where you review real evidence, listen to witnesses, cops etc). 100% of the time the news article was incorrect about the actual details of what had happened. Take everything you read with a grain of salt.

 

[Gunner3456]

If all you do is buy multiple guns in a few days I believe nothing will happen to you. This was more than that.

I bought 6 .22lr rifles in one day when Bi-Mart had them on sale not long ago and no one said a word. I had to go to 3 stores to get them. I also bought 1,000 rounds of ammo for each.

I never even got questioned. I bought them for possible barter if the SHTF, but they are also money in the bank some day, I hope.

Relax. Several LEO depts all decided they needed to check this guy out, and all agreed, and they sent the joint SWAT unit for their own possible protection.

 

[Gunner3456]

Discussing news articles like this is not usually worthwhile.

I served on a grand jury awhile back for a few weeks, and I went and looked up the articles for a lot of the cases that I heard (where you review real evidence, listen to witnesses, cops etc). 100% of the time the news article was incorrect about the actual details of what had happened. Take everything you read with a grain of salt.

I know exactly what happened at every step. I just can't say how I know on here.

This is why I've been trying to cool this down. It went down just fine in my opinion.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Yeah, screw the 4th Amendment.
Screw the need for a warrant issued due to sworn oath or affirmation.
Screw Miranda.

The guy messed up when he didn't demand a warrant for the seizure of his personal property and for his custody.

If the police show up with that kind of "show of force" and no warrant(s), that is intimidation and any police custodial action without a warrant is a violation of my 4th Amendment rights.
Forcing me to talk with interrogators (psyche doctors or otherwise) without prior benefit of legal council is a violation of my 5th Amendment rights.

A good lawyer could make hash of the senior officers that planned this, and I hope that comes to pass.

If it had been me the Medford PD/Sherrif etc would have just set up my retirement!

 

[matt_w]

It went down just fine in my opinion.

I wouldn't be suprised. If I would have read about this happening in Portland I would be more suspicous of the police given their track record there, but I'm imagining Medford is a lot like Hillsboro where it's a smaller town and the cops are usually pretty cool and don't treat everyone like crap.

 

[Gunner3456]

I wouldn't be suprised. If I would have read about this happening in Portland I would be more suspicous of the police given their track record there, but I'm imagining Medford is a lot like Hillsboro where it's a smaller town and the cops are usually pretty cool and don't treat everyone like crap.

That's a true assumption, both MPD and the Sheriff's guys.

 

[Gunner3456]

Yeah, screw the 4th Amendment.
Screw the need for a warrant issued due to sworn oath or affirmation.
Screw Miranda.

The guy messed up when he didn't demand a warrant for the seizure of his personal property and for his custody.

If the police show up with that kind of "show of force" and no warrant(s), that is intimidation and any police custodial action without a warrant is a violation of my 4th Amendment rights.
Forcing me to talk with interrogators (psyche doctors or otherwise) without prior benefit of legal council is a violation of my 5th Amendment rights.

A good lawyer could make hash of the senior officers that planned this, and I hope that comes to pass.

If it had been me the Medford PD/Sherrif etc would have just set up my retirement!

Just don't practice law, OK? You'll make a lot more money digging ditches for a living.

 

[supergenius]

I know exactly what happened at every step. I just can't say how I know on here.

This is why I've been trying to cool this down. It went down just fine in my opinion.

Loosely translated as the guy did or said something he probably shouldnt have, therefore gaining WARANTED attention, and the situatuion worked itself out JUST like it should have..


ThX.


Its about what I thought from the beginning.

 

[ZachS]

If it had been me the Medford PD/Sherrif etc would have just set up my retirement!

Actually, the potential jury award/settlement would be so low that you'd have trouble finding a lawyer willing to take your case.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Just don't practice law, OK? You'll make a lot more money digging ditches for a living.

Are you saying they had a warrant? For him? For his guns?
Does/did he have testimony to give as a material witness?
If so, fine. If not he screwed up.
And if you can't disclose,... Then I guess you don't have much to offer the discussion do ya?!?

I would like to think everyone knows enough about their rights to know to ASK TO SEE THE WARRANT when the police come to take you into custody.

The 4th Amendment guarantees you the right to be secure within your home.
Look it up.

They successfully intimidated him into giving up his 4th and 5th amendment rights. By whatever means verbally, and with the show of force they provided.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Actually, the potential jury award/settlement would be so low that you'd have trouble finding a lawyer willing to take your case.

People have won million$ over hot coffee.
And this guy was just intimidated out of his house and personal property, without due process.

If I am no longer secure in my own home because a law enforcement supervisor forgot he needed due process to take my property and me into custody,... Somebody's going to pay!

 

[supergenius]

People have won million$ over hot coffee.
And this guy was just intimidated out of his house and personal property, without due process.

If I am no longer secure in my own home because a law enforcement supervisor forgot he needed due process to take my property and me into custody,... Somebody's going to pay!

I think you think you know a lot more than you do

 

[Gunner3456]

Are you saying they had a warrant? For him? For his guns?
Does/did he have testimony to give as a material witness?
If so, fine. If not he screwed up.
And if you can't disclose,... Then I guess you don't have much to offer the discussion do ya?!?

I would like to think everyone knows enough about their rights to know to ASK TO SEE THE WARRANT when the police come to take you into custody.

The 4th Amendment guarantees you the right to be secure within your home.
Look it up.

They successfully intimidated him into giving up his 4th and 5th amendment rights. By whatever means verbally, and with the show of force they provided.

People have won million$ over hot coffee.
And this guy was just intimidated out of his house and personal property, without due process.

If I am no longer secure in my own home because a law enforcement supervisor forgot he needed due process to take my property and me into custody,... Somebody's going to pay!

Look. The guy didn't even have to answer his door unless he was told they had a warrant. You can choose to give up your rights, which he did. Everything the police did was with his permission, including taking him in for evaluation.

Once you waive your rights, you lose them. There's no lawsuit after that.

If a SWAT team or officers in any other fashion come to your house without a warrant you don't even have to answer the door. You sure don't have to talk to them. There's nothing intimidating about a bunch of police with no warrant.

If you choose to waive your rights you have no recourse.

Forget the big bucks. The guy waived his rights and he has no recourse.

The police did a good thing since the issue was time sensitive, they were very concerned, and they used negotiation instead of force.

I hope you don't just dislike police no matter what they do.

 

[chris61182]

If a SWAT team or officers in any other fashion come to your house without a warrant you don't even have to answer the door. You sure don't have to talk to them. There's nothing intimidating about a bunch of police with no warrant.

Frankly I would find that show of force intimidating as ****! To the point where I'd be worried I wouldn't live through declining their 'requests.'

At which point wouldn't any waiving of rights be under duress?

 

[Jamie6.5]

I like most police personnel. I have had more than one as a personal friend.

But to say that the police did "a good thing" by coercing this person from his premises is wrong.

Okay, he waived his rights. With SWAT outside, what choice was he given?
That constitutes intimidation, pure and simple.

Ask to see the warrant, every time. If it's for your custody only, they can't take your property. If the property was legally purchased, and is in legal quantities it doesn't constitute grounds for arrest, so if the warrant is for the property only, leave me secure in my home.
The threat of SWAT constitutes a threat to my domestic security.
There better be a warrant, or somebody's gonna pay.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Frankly I would find that show of force intimidating as ****! To the point where I'd be worried I wouldn't live through declining their 'requests.'
At which point wouldn't any waiving of rights be under duress?

Precisely!