“Like a diver in duress, when you face a threat on the street you won't be doing much thinking…”

[danarzh]

For those of us that think you'll be a total champ in the heat of the moment, read this article: https://ymaa.com/articles/2014/09/account-for-adrenaline

For me, something that I will start doing, is putting myself to *basically* empty (in regards to energy) before shooting, to simulate adrenaline situations. Not sure if amygdala training is possible without truly experiencing real combat, which I haven't done, but I want to do what I can.

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[Stomper]

For those of us that think you'll be a total champ in the heat of the moment, read this article: https://ymaa.com/articles/2014/09/account-for-adrenaline

For me, something that I will start doing, is putting myself to *basically* empty (in regards to energy) before shooting, to simulate adrenaline situations. Not sure if amygdala training is possible without truly experiencing real combat, which I haven't done, but I want to do what I can.

Fighting to keep from hyperventilating while fighting is a common thing.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

truly experiencing real combat,

In my experience combat is extremely personal...as in , how one person reacts will be vastly different from another person.

Also...
Combat is the most intimate experience you can have with another human.
Far more intimate than even lovemaking.
With lovemaking , you can give the promise of life...
With combat you are giving both life and death.

And something else to consider....
Just how one reacts in a dangerous situation once ...
Is no guarantee that one will react the same again , if placed in a similar situation.

Andy

 

[Andy54Hawken]

A few other things to consider here....

Is the willingness to take another human being's life.
During my four combat tours , I have done so...
I have seen others however who could not.

I am not posting the above to brag or boast.
Looking back now on my experiences with it , I do not see it as a good thing or a bad thing...
It simply was something that needed to be done .

Also , it pays off to never discount the other person's will to live.
And to do unto you...before you do unto them.

Situational awareness...
Cultivating a no-nonsense , alert , but not confrontational "look" / posture...
Putting a barrier between you and the threat...
As well as breaking contact...

Are all often overlooked and underused ...but all can be a life saver.
Andy

 

[Ura-Ki]

My First time in combat when another human died by my hand, after things had calmed down, I puked my guts out, and was sick for several hours, partly from the emotions of the experience, and part adrenalin dump! My First Trauma patient was a bad one, and I had to keep it all together, show zero emotions, and do my job to the very best of my abilities, after we landed and handed off the patient, I puked my guts out again all over the landing pad, my Pilot sat down next to me and told me it was completely normal, that it meant I was human after all! It does get better, but it's still rough. The biggest thing you really want to avoid is becoming numb to it, that makes you dangerous to others around you, makes you take risks you shouldn't, and it could end badly for all involved!

 

[kmk1012]

Wow, some of the reflections in this thread are an eye opener. Very descriptive, for some it's hard to share memories like that but I thank you for being the strong ones who've been able to do it for the greater good! My hats off to you.

 

[Meridian7750]

Mad respect to those of you who have "been there, done that". You are the true heroes in our society and I'd be proud to buy you a cold one any time, anywhere.
I don't think most of us have ANY idea how we would handle an imminent threat.
I know I don't. And I'm not gonna be a keyboard warrior and pretend that I'm a bada$$.
Be safe, pay attention, and don't let the a$$holes win.

 

[Cerberus Group]

I didn't experience a lot of things that experts said would happen...but as @Andy54Hawken said, everyone will experience different things.

My first one, I got tagged by a 9mm in the upper left thigh and shrapnel in the knee...didn't know it until 30+ minutes after the fact...adrenaline works in mysterious ways for everyone.

Never had any remorse or flashbacks with any of them.

Worked with team members whom I thought were solid, but came apart with the first shots being fired at us...others who I had doubts about came through very well...ya just never know until it happens.

I really stress that everyone who carries get to the point where they can keep attention with what's going on around them, instead of concerning themselves with the tools in their hands.

 

[Provincial]

A career in non-airline aviation exposed me to an overabundance of life-threatening, stressful situations. The last year of flying for a living involved one engine failure on takeoff, six fire warnings in flight (only one of which was for real) and other incidents. Watching a good friend die in an accident isn't like combat, but still deeply disturbing. In one year, six people I knew, some very well, died in airplane accidents. Every time I took skydivers up, there was a chance that one wouldn't be there to talk to when I landed.

In aviation, you have to remain in control all the time. You will not survive if you "lock up" even for a few moments. Many accident investigations reveal fatal aircraft crashes that might have have been survived had the pilot kept cool and flown the airplane all the way to the end.

 

[American123]

For those of us that think you'll be a total champ in the heat of the moment, read this article: https://ymaa.com/articles/2014/09/account-for-adrenaline

For me, something that I will start doing, is putting myself to *basically* empty (in regards to energy) before shooting, to simulate adrenaline situations. Not sure if amygdala training is possible without truly experiencing real combat, which I haven't done, but I want to do what I can.

While I have no combat experience, I do with tunnel vision. I definitely got it during very unfriendly childhood fistfights and later on during wrestling. With more experience it went away completely even when adrenaline was pumping. Maintaining thinking ability while someone is simultaneously trying to choke you out isn't the same as combat, but as far as avoiding tunnel vision, it seems relevant.

 

[Ura-Ki]

As always, my friend Andy imparts great wisdom upon us all in a clear and simple manor, I couldn't have said it better if I tried!

how one person reacts will be vastly different from another person.

Combat is the most intimate experience you can have with another human.

Just how one reacts in a dangerous situation once ...
Is no guarantee that one will react the same again

never discount the other person's will to live.

And to do unto you...before you do unto them.

These quotes make for some pretty good advice if you asked me, and one should ponder them along with ones own personal thoughts, feelings, emotions, and experiences!
I think the biggest one is: "Never discount the other persons will to live," and I would add to that, Never discount another persons ANGER, RAGE, or FEAR! All can be serious motivators that drive a person far beyond anything you thought a person could be capable, and lastly, don't expect a Lethal hit to end a persons desire to win or to continue to fight, that's the most dangerous element there is!

 

[Cerberus Group]

I don't see tunnel vision as a bad thing, we're in tunnel vision a few times with things we do everyday, the problem comes from the inability to come out of it...staying in it too long.

 

[MTpockets]

Just a heads up on the type of training described in the OP…. Probably common knowledge…but anyway.

When training under severe fatigue and/or stress, a person may want to consider having an observer-trainer shadowing their activity.
Once the stressors become mental fatigue, the probability of making mistakes increases significantly. You can check mental fatigue between stages/exercises by reciting simple math tables etc... For a test of concentration during the exercise, a person can be given a string of words at the beginning of a stage, or course of stages, that they need to recite at any point during the course.

Stay Safe

Edit to add: Drink Water & Change Your Socks.

 

[American123]

I don't see tunnel vision as a bad thing, we're in tunnel vision a few times with things we do everyday, the problem comes from the inability to come out of it...staying in it too long.

I guess the question becomes, how is tunnel vision ever really beneficial differently than just being able to maintain focus on something irrelevant of other external stimuli. When I describe something with the phrase "tunnel vision" I use it to refer to someone who was incapable of being aware of things outside of their very specific focus at the time, maybe there is a phrase that would be better applied, but I also think of it as impaired cognitive function as a result of the intense focus on that one particular subject.

 

[Ura-Ki]

I guess the question becomes, how is tunnel vision ever really beneficial differently than just being able to maintain focus on something irrelevant of other external stimuli. When I describe something with the phrase "tunnel vision" I use it to refer to someone who was incapable of being aware of things outside of their very specific focus at the time, maybe there is a phrase that would be better applied, but I also think of it as impaired cognitive function as a result of the intense focus on that one particular subject.

A lot of what your talking about at is actually "Target Fixation" rather then anything else, it's like having blinders on, or being so hyper focused on exactly what's in front of you that you miss potentially important details outside your field of view! We called it being "Locked On Target", or "Really Stuck In," and while that in it's self isn't a bad thing, being able to pull back and take a big look see, or as Pilots Say, keep your head out of the cockpit, is really good advice!

 

[American123]

A lot of what your talking about at is actually "Target Fixation" rather then anything else, it's like having blinders on, or being so hyper focused on exactly what's in front of you that you miss potentially important details outside your field of view! We called it being "Locked On Target", or "Really Stuck In," and while that in it's self isn't a bad thing, being able to pull back and take a big look see, or as Pilots Say, keep your head out of the cockpit, is really good advice!

Makes sense. That's really what I'm referring too. "Target fixation." Thanks. Target fixation is a killer.

 

[OldBroad44]

Re:...when you face a threat on the street, you won't be doing much thinking."

Not so for me. I think fast anyway. But how fast I think in emergencies, including civilian-life SD emergencies, makes my ordinary thinking seem lethargic. I go instantly into what seems to be a different state of consciousness.Heart rate speeds somewhat, breathing is faster and deeper. Nostrils flare. The passage between nose and back of my mouth flares and part of my breath reaches the back of my mouth. My pupils become pinpricks. I perceive enhanced strength. So much so that if holding a SA semi-auto, I realize I can't properly judge the right amount of strength to apply to the trigger if I have to hold the gun on someone without shooting them, which I've had to do. Even if I've shot the gun many thousands of rounds. (Which is why I went to DA revolvers for SD or carry. And do a good bit of shooting including SD drills in DA.) I feel neither fear nor anger. Risk to myself, even whether I live or die is just one issue, not necessarily terribly important. There is just what needs to be done. There is also no doubt that I will pull the trigger if the line is crossed. And where the line is. But also a huge determination not to pull the trigger until the last possible instant. My body is steady and calm. Ultimately calm.

Afterwards the shaking comes. And in one case I went down on my knees, crying with relief that I didn't have to kill the guy. And that I was in time to save the woman who had been attacked, even though I had to stop to put on contacts, clothes, and shoes. (I didn't own glasses, and this was in a state where possession of a handgun was an automatic year in jail, so I would have needed to run from the cops had any shown up, which can be done better wearing clothes and shoes.)

I now own eyeglasses and keep them next to my EDC at night. And if I ever buy a high capacity semiautomatic plastic wonder it will need to be DA/SA.

I know about my pupils becoming pinpricks when in this alterred state because of an incident where a neighbor thought it would be fun to scare me. I had stepped out to pick a few greens from my garden for a salad. Was unarmed, kneeling at garden bed with back to the road. Guy snuck up on road, intending to grab me from behind, was a couple feet away looming over me, arms outstretched. I must have heard him, glanced back, and went into that altered state instantly, plan done, right hand will punch into his kidney from lowered position with full power of my arm and leg behind it as I rise from crouch, will crush kidney totally probably, at least bend him over, next blow to larynx and lethal, revision--door is unlocked, just a few feet away, with dogs and gun inside, I don't have to kill him, I can just smash his kidney and run. Must identify the target. My eye flicked upward from crouched position at face of guy looming above. A neighbor. Guy was staggering backward, and turned white. "You were going to kill me!" he said. I straightened up and said very softly and slowly, "Dont ever do that. It is very dangerous." He said "I've just lived in good old safe Corvallis my whole life." "I haven't," I said. On my way back into the house I wondered how he had known I was going to kill him. I thought my face was expressionless. Went in bathroom and looked at mirror. Yipe. Pin-prick pupils. And the rest of the face went with the eyes. Scariest face I've ever seen. And that was me, inside of me, called up in a tiny fraction of a second. Frightening, awful. Yet also reassuring. The real defense isn't the guns. It's me. And even fully in this other state I would do as little damage as needed. Normally I assume if attacked outdoors, running isn't an option because I can't outrun a man. And turning my back would eliminate any ability to defend myself. Nor would I expect to be able to beat a man in a fair fight unarmed. My main advantage is surprise, so I am likely to have only one or two blows, and they better count. But I was not, as is usually the case, too far from help to matter. If I could incapacitate the guy just temporarily, I could run for the door, and even if he was chasing me all I'd need to do was get far enough to open the door and the dogs would be there. And a gun.

I talked with my brother about this altered state in emergencies. He has exactly the same thing. He had never experienced a real SD situation. But there were bullies in HS. They learned to leave him alone. He wasn't all that big, but in this altered state, he was so fast, so strong, and thought so fast that he could make even the biggest bullies very sorry. And from my brothers perspective it seemed everybody else was moving in slow motion, so easy to beat. I myself don't perceive everything else as slowing down, but as myself thinking and moving supernaturaly fast.

Anyone else experience an apparently altered state of consciousness in emergencies?

 

[Paolung]

The biggest thing you really want to avoid is becoming numb to it, that makes you dangerous to others around you, makes you take risks you shouldn't

Why?

Why does it make you dangerous if you don't feel sick or revulsion or whatever?

I not sure if relying on feelings like that is the way to know you're on the right track.

It seems to me that, yes, you may feel those things and have those reactions, but not feeling them or having that reaction doesn't make you any more inherently dangerous or risky than anyone else.

You'll just be less driven by feelings and emotion than someone who does.

I'm not so sure that's a bad thing

 

[Andy54Hawken]

@Paolung
I cannot answer for Ura-Ki.

However...speaking only for myself and my experiences....
My thoughts on combat and killing have changed over time.
How I felt then about combat and taking lives after returning from my 4 combat tours ...
And how I feel now , is different.
Time has passed...I have been able to "process" what I did...I can accept what I have done...
Not that I couldn't accept what I did then...just thought about it differently.

Killing in combat is serious matter...your life or others may depend on it.
The lives you take , deserve respect.
So acceptance of what you have done...and the "why" it was done is important.
Understanding your role and the part you played , is important , so as to 'anchor" yourself when in uncharted waters..
So to speak.

If you have a soldier who does not feel something after combat and or killing...
He may lack some sort of reason or "governor" so to speak , to keep him from killing when it ain't necessary.
As well as the understanding of the need to follow the rules of engagement.
Rules are important in warfare...without rules...your army turns into an armed mob...and that ain't good for no one.

"It is well that war is so terrible , otherwise we should grow too fond of it"...Stated General Robert E. Lee.
That sums up , at least for me...why emotions are important for a soldier.
Andy

 

[Paolung]

@Paolung
I cannot answer for Ura-Ki.

However...speaking only for myself and my experiences....
My thoughts on combat and killing have changed over time.
How I felt then about combat and taking lives after returning from my 4 combat tours ...
And how I feel now , is different.
Time has passed...I have been able to "process" what I did...I can accept what I have done...
Not that I couldn't accept what I did then...just thought about it differently.

Killing in combat is serious matter...your life or others may depend on it.
The lives you take , deserve respect.
So acceptance of what you have done...and the "why" it was done is important.
Understanding your role and the part you played , is important , so as to 'anchor" yourself when in uncharted waters..
So to speak.

If you have a soldier who does not feel something after combat and or killing...
He may lack some sort of reason or "governor" so to speak , to keep him from killing when it ain't necessary.
As well as the understanding of the need to follow the rules of engagement.
Rules are important in warfare...without rules...your army turns into an armed mob...and that ain't good for no one.

"It is well that war is so terrible , otherwise we should grow too fond of it"...Stated General Robert E. Lee.
That sums up , at least for me...why emotions are important for a soldier.
Andy

Hmm, interesting take.

I'm not suggesting that emotions can't be valuable, and useful at times.

But I would think that having a strong ethical / moral code (whether backed by feelings or not) would be a more useful and important quality to have than someone who feels bad when they have to do some of the terrible things men have to do in those situations.

That is to say, the code of ethics and morality one subscribes to and lives by dictates behavior better than emotions and feelings do, methinks.

Otherwise, we're no different than the lower animals.

What say you?