I will not comply

[traderpats]

"Just following orders" works perfectly if you're on the winning side.

Also:
Milgram experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Stanford prison experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thinking that LEO/military will actually refuse to follow immoral/illegal orders is nothing more than a delusion.

Couldn't disagree more. If that's the case we've already lost and just don't know it...

 

[Hook686]

Not so... some rights are inalienable and given to us by our Maker.

Perhaps you are right. However, how do you propose dealing with situations where your 'inalienable right' conflicts with my 'inalienable right' ? It seems to me you advocate that your 'inalienable right' takes precedence and thus discounts my 'inalienable right'. I guess when one side has decided that it is no longer willing to honor the rulings, or procedures prescribed, by the judicial branch, insurrection is the ultimate outcome. Somehow this strikes me as sad.

 

[Hook686]

It (sic) the case of constitutional rights it has EVERYTHING to do with how good a person the officer is.

traderpats tell who you think determines what a specific constitutional right may, or may not be ?

 

[1stklass]

I cant comply, all my guns sunk to the bottom of the pacific halibut fishing. and i have no problem lying to anyone coming to my door asking if i have guns, tweezers, toenail clippers, box cutters, tooth picks, scissors, kitchen knives, or poprocks and soda.

 

[gehrheart]

What makes you say this? You didn't know her personally. Ayn Rand was born into and saw the flaws of the Soviet Communist state where the state is everything and the individual is nothing, she as I understand that we should be the individualists we were born to be and that the state must be under us and not over us.

And some will always be statist that can not or will not ever be able to be an individual. They will always be there to serve the state.

 

[Bob D]

I will comply. In fact, I will do whatever is necessary to keep myself and my family alive. I would rather live under tyranny than die "free." We have no right to freedom, any more than we have a right to life. The world will not cry at my passing, but my wife and kids will.

I will comply, to every letter of the law, and no further. I consider it extremely unlikely that the government would pass any law requiring them to come to my house to get my firearms, but should they show up with a list and threaten search and seizure, (again, a ludicrous proposition,) I would immediately turn over to them exactly what they ask for, and nothing more.

You can say all you want about non-compliance and dying on a hill, but my so-called "rights" are nowhere near as important to me as the lives of my children. I would give up every single one of my rights, sell out every single one of your rights, turn in all of my guns, drive a Prius, vote green party, and eat nothing but quiche for the rest of my life if that's what's necessary to keep them alive and me out of jail to be with them.

The terrible secret that none of you will want to believe is that probably... you would too.

 

[Bob D]

I know there are a lot of people here that at one time or another took a oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
The question is how many that have taken that oath will obey orders if given them to confiscate guns from citizens that at this time are legal to own? or will you go with flow just to keep the job?
and to those that haven't taken the oath, will live up to that oath?

I've taken that oath. There's a lot of opinions on what that constitution means, and I didn't take an oath to defend my interpretation of it. I'm a fairly insignificant person as far as constitutional interpretation goes. I also swore that day that I would obey the orders of the President and the officers appointed over me.

That said, if the government lawfully decides that the 2nd amendment does not include AR-15s, and the incredibly irrational decision is made to go door-to-door collecting them, and I were ordered to do so, I would tell the officer to go do it his gorramned self if he felt like getting shot at by his neighbors.

 

[wolfcreek]

I will comply. In fact, I will do whatever is necessary to keep myself and my family alive. I would rather live under tyranny than die "free." We have no right to freedom, any more than we have a right to life. The world will not cry at my passing, but my wife and kids will.

I will comply, to every letter of the law, and no further. I consider it extremely unlikely that the government would pass any law requiring them to come to my house to get my firearms, but should they show up with a list and threaten search and seizure, (again, a ludicrous proposition,) I would immediately turn over to them exactly what they ask for, and nothing more.

You can say all you want about non-compliance and dying on a hill, but my so-called "rights" are nowhere near as important to me as the lives of my children. I would give up every single one of my rights, sell out every single one of your rights, turn in all of my guns, drive a Prius, vote green party, and eat nothing but quiche for the rest of my life if that's what's necessary to keep them alive and me out of jail to be with them.

The terrible secret that none of you will want to believe is that probably... you would too.

Words fail me. No right to freedom? Are you sure you're an American?

 

[katsnatchfever]

Bob D, you don't speak for all of us here. You can assume everyone will bend over if that makes you feel better about yourself, but don't project that in a post. The anti- 2a people truly believe that having guns in your home is a danger to your children so there you go- time to turn them in for a Denny's breakfast. Why wait for a law? Don't you love your children?

It's amazing that you believe your children have any sort of promise in the future the way this world is going. Some of us believe we will have to stand up for our children to have the RIGHT to freedom and that's why we take a stance.

 

[Bob D]

Words fail me. No right to freedom? Are you sure you're an American?

Definitely an American. Philosophically, there are a lot of definitions of a "right." Here in America, we made up a new definition, basically meaning "things that we agree should not be taken from each other." And that's all very well and good, and I agree with it, but that doesn't stop people from taking them away.

Basically, we've come up with a few things that everyone liked the idea of, and declared them "rights," and legislated them. There's nothing innately special about being human that enables us to freely speak our mind and expect no repercussions. There's nothing innately special about being human that keeps us from being imprisoned, restricted, censored, tortured, killed, or abused.

A "right" is simply a piece of legislation that I'm happy to protect and to have protecting me.
That's what I meant, and it's off-topic and highly controversial, so that's going to be all the explanation I give on it.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I do not agree that if the government elements are against us we have lost

I'm certainly glad the colonists in 1775 weren't defeatists

 

[gehrheart]

I will not, can not, refuse to! years from now look at my children and say I didnt fight for your rights whn the time was needed. My children are my life, They have a right to freedom and I will do everything I can to ensure that they have that freedom.. If I fail, I will be at least able to tell them I did everything I could.
With out freedom, what is life?

 

[Bob D]

Bob D, you don't speak for all of us here. You can assume everyone will bend over if that makes you feel better about yourself, but don't project that in a post. The anti- 2a people truly believe that having guns in your home is a danger to your children so there you go- time to turn them in for a Denny's breakfast. Why wait for a law? Don't you love your children?

It's amazing that you believe your children have any sort of promise in the future the way this world is going. Some of us believe we will have to stand up for our children to have the RIGHT to freedom and that's why we take a stance.

Why wait for a law? Because I disagree with those anti-2A people. I believe that guns in my house makes me and my children more safe.

However, if there comes a time when having guns in my house makes me a target for armed gun-collectors, well, at that point I consider the guns to be a hazard to my safety and the safety of my family. So I'll give them any guns they know about and request. If there are loopholes to be found, I'll find them, but I will not die trying to make a point about my right to own a 30-round magazine. There are MUCH more important things to me than my firearms.

 

[Bob D]

With out freedom, what is life?

Ask 99.999% of humans throughout history. They managed to get by.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Why wait for a law? Because I disagree with those anti-2A people. I believe that guns in my house makes me and my children more safe.

However, if there comes a time when having guns in my house makes me a target for armed gun-collectors, well, at that point I consider the guns to be a hazard to my safety and the safety of my family. So I'll give them any guns they know about and request. If there are loopholes to be found, I'll find them, but I will not die trying to make a point about my right to own a 30-round magazine. There are MUCH more important things to me than my firearms.

I'm guessing your ancestors were Tories

 

[wolfcreek]

Definitely an American. Philosophically, there are a lot of definitions of a "right." Here in America, we made up a new definition, basically meaning "things that we agree should not be taken from each other." And that's all very well and good, and I agree with it, but that doesn't stop people from taking them away.

Basically, we've come up with a few things that everyone liked the idea of, and declared them "rights," and legislated them. There's nothing innately special about being human that enables us to freely speak our mind and expect no repercussions. There's nothing innately special about being human that keeps us from being imprisoned, restricted, censored, tortured, killed, or abused.

A "right" is simply a piece of legislation that I'm happy to protect and to have protecting me.
That's what I meant, and it's off-topic and highly controversial, so that's going to be all the explanation I give on it.

You certainly have the right to think that, but it completely contradicts to the principles on which this country was founded ( "endowed... inalienable rights", etc.) - hence my question.

 

[jfw]

"Just following orders" works perfectly if you're on the winning side.

Also:
Milgram experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Stanford prison experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thinking that LEO/military will actually refuse to follow immoral/illegal orders is nothing more than a delusion.

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. LEO'S do not follow blind orders, they are not government dogs. It will come down to their individual beliefs and many will refuse to follow illegal/immoral/unconstitutional orders.

 

[Bob D]

You certainly have the right to think that, but it completely contradicts to the principles on which this country was founded ( "endowed... inalienable rights", etc.) - hence my question.

In short, they were wrong. If it was inalienable, then it would not be possible to take it away, and yet, life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness can all be taken.

 

[katsnatchfever]

Bob, do you not worry what the govt may decide for your children if they are willing to take your firearms by force?
I always wondered how Japanese citizens were rounded up during WWII. What kind of person brought them to the camp & stood watch? Well, apparently there are people in this country that will follow any order given, even prosecuting their fellow Americans who have done nothing wrong. Whether its a certain heritage, or today, a scary black rifle owner.
It's sad to see that you would be content with living like a good little bot based on the false premise that our govt knows what's best for you and will make sure everything is okay. You think everything is rational now. The govt is only making reasonable restrictions, why fight it?
Our 2a rights will be the first to go in a long list of "reasonable" restrictions. You will probably be long gone by the time your children are confronted with true tyranny. And you will have left them with nothing.

 

[Boats]

I will comply. In fact, I will do whatever is necessary to keep myself and my family alive. I would rather live under tyranny than die "free." We have no right to freedom, any more than we have a right to life. The world will not cry at my passing, but my wife and kids will.

I will comply, to every letter of the law, and no further. I consider it extremely unlikely that the government would pass any law requiring them to come to my house to get my firearms, but should they show up with a list and threaten search and seizure, (again, a ludicrous proposition,) I would immediately turn over to them exactly what they ask for, and nothing more.

You can say all you want about non-compliance and dying on a hill, but my so-called "rights" are nowhere near as important to me as the lives of my children. I would give up every single one of my rights, sell out every single one of your rights, turn in all of my guns, drive a Prius, vote green party, and eat nothing but quiche for the rest of my life if that's what's necessary to keep them alive and me out of jail to be with them.

The terrible secret that none of you will want to believe is that probably... you would too.

You are exactly the kind of guy who found himself in a Nazi concentration camp, or in the Khmer Rouge's killing fields wondering why he didn't do something earlier.