I didn't have my gun

[Certaindeaf]

Too bad it didn't happen in front of a donut shop.

Oh, and don't be a dick.

 

[rick benjamin]

So here's a question;
is there possibly a place in this situation for a warning shot to be fired?
Gunshots are loud and they tend to get people's undivided attention. Putting a round into a tree or other suitable, safe backstop while maintaining a safe distance from the perps might at least get them to stop their hostile action towards the victim since a gunshot is a virtual guarantee that the police will be arriving forthwith.
Thoughts?

"six "street kids" beating the crap out of a woman.
People standing around gawking,
One one guy trying to stop the fight but to no avail."

You are un-armed, driving a car.
There are sheeple (sheep people) watching
A sheepdog (Guy) is already engaging the wolves.
Layers of options
Retreat, Keep on driving, leave the area. Sell your gun to me for cheap.
observe, wait for ? free entertainment?
engage, drive your vehicle to within 1 inch of the incident, lean on the horn, move fwd a foot.
or
Park your vehicle, grab your tire iron and poke the dogpile hard yelling Police!, Fire!, free food!
or
Support the one guy already trying to stop the fight
(guarding his back from attack, two adults pulling the wolves away, knock heads together, etc)

Think downstream consequences...
Deadly threat
Gun display, discharge should be your last option.
Such as "the wolves turn their attention to you" Now, you are in fear of your life.
Then
The closest wolf gets the first round in it's center of mass
Next wolf, repeat. Continue till they break and retreat.

 

[rick benjamin]

Noise?
Carry a whistle or a whistle
Scream like a little girl....

 

[etrain16]

I have this lockbox for my car - it works well enough for the times I need to remove the gun from my holster:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Club-LB200-Personal-Security/dp/B002WRRNFO/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1406493040&sr=8-10&keywords=gun lock box

It's not super high security, but it's very concealed in the car and would be difficult to remove/open in a very short period of time.

+1 on Sabre - I carry it, my wife carries it, it sits near the front door of our house.

As for using my gun in a situation such as the OP noted, I wouldn't do it. It's going to have to be an absolutely life and death situation before I draw my gun. I'll try other things first - including the spray. Only if the life of myself or perhaps someone else is in danger, the gun stays hidden.

And I must agree, Portland isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. I've been working in and around downtown PDX for the better part of 20 years - though I live 20 miles from there. I've never run into an issue like the OP nor have I ever been the victim of a crime down there - not to say it can't or doesn't happen, I just don't see that it's a very frequent thing. After having been to places like LA, Chicago, D.C., Baltimore, Miami, Orlando - I feel much safer in Portland. Plus the homeless/street thugs aren't nearly as aggressive here as they are in those other cities.

 

[The Heretic]

Seattle, around Pioneer Park up to the international district - much worse than downtown Portland. BTDT

 

[40calruler]

Portland is "not as bad as people make it out" if you go there during the day and walk over the sleeping homeless people and druggies...Guess what..they wake up at night! At night SW is a ghost town with nobody but people who have to work and people who are up to no good. Maybe you guys are thinking NW or something but go hang out overnight for a while in SW after 10 since all shops are closed are no bars are on that side of town. Head up to 10th and walk around the max tracks. Go down to 3rd and alder. Then tell me it is exaggerated.
I have seen more incidents than I can count with people I do not know and my employees calling me as they are in fear of a group or person for some reason or another. After a few drunk/cracked out/ crazy people attack your co workers and friends you might second guess the ignorance of thinking it is just playtime there like it is during the day.
Feel free to call the cops. One of my buildings is right across the street from the downtown station. Average response is still 5 to 10 minutes.....That is not a guess it is in my reports I submit for any incident involving a property or crew member. No matter which of 9 properties I am at in SW I have got to my employees before the police every time. No matter how bad the situation.
To those who claim its not so bad feel free to take a stroll. After you call the cops look for a guy in a reflective vest with a radio he is likely one of mine or at least has a radio that can reach me. Then you can confuse him and say 40cal was right and please help me out. I will come save your bubblegum and then when I am gone 10 minutes later you can tell the police about the bad guys with knives who tried to come after you and leave me the heck out of it. My reports of the police timing does not get me a lot of love from the downtown night patrols since it is handed in to their superiors.

 

[The Heretic]

 

[40calruler]

Also the idea of firing a gun downtown is a very bad one unless you are shooting it into a threat to your life. A warning shot is not likely going to get anything but you in cuffs since as the OP described there is often a few people around...Not many trees big enough to aim and quickly shoot safely into and more than likely as was said before you will be charged. Mace and your fists are best as the majority are just bullies and when they are stood up to they tend to cower. A lot do carry weapons but as long as you know you are armed there is no reason to say it or display it. If the mace does not stop it at least you know you have a better method they do not know about.

 

[etrain16]

Portland is "not as bad as people make it out" if you go there during the day and walk over the sleeping homeless people and druggies...Guess what..they wake up at night! At night SW is a ghost town with nobody but people who have to work and people who are up to no good. Maybe you guys are thinking NW or something but go hang out overnight for a while in SW after 10 since all shops are closed are no bars are on that side of town. Head up to 10th and walk around the max tracks. Go down to 3rd and alder. Then tell me it is exaggerated.
I have seen more incidents than I can count with people I do not know and my employees calling me as they are in fear of a group or person for some reason or another. After a few drunk/cracked out/ crazy people attack your co workers and friends you might second guess the ignorance of thinking it is just playtime there like it is during the day.
Feel free to call the cops. One of my buildings is right across the street from the downtown station. Average response is still 5 to 10 minutes.....That is not a guess it is in my reports I submit for any incident involving a property or crew member. No matter which of 9 properties I am at in SW I have got to my employees before the police every time. No matter how bad the situation.
To those who claim its not so bad feel free to take a stroll. After you call the cops look for a guy in a reflective vest with a radio he is likely one of mine or at least has a radio that can reach me. Then you can confuse him and say 40cal was right and please help me out. I will come save your bubblegum and then when I am gone 10 minutes later you can tell the police about the bad guys with knives who tried to come after you and leave me the heck out of it. My reports of the police timing does not get me a lot of love from the downtown night patrols since it is handed in to their superiors.

I can't think of many cities that don't become dangerous after dark. That's when the bad guys come out to play. It's hardly unique to Portland, and yes, it's worse in other cities (such as those I listed in an earlier post). I worked graveyard shift in PDX for some time - from SW to NW (before it was a fully developed Pearl district) - moving from place to place. Yes, I saw bad people, but no one ever attacked me. Maybe it's just me - I'm a big guy, 6'1" and I don't timidly walk with my head down like some folks who become victims. I think it's a good idea to be prepared, aware and vigilant anytime you're out after dark. Being in a group is a bonus if you can pull it off.

I didn't see that the discussion was about night time specifically, some folks seemed to indicate PDX was bad and didn't qualify after midnight as the key point. I still find myself in PDX after dark from time to time - and yes, I carry when I do. But after being in some other cities after dark, I still feel that PDX is safer - in my opinion - than many others. Heck, I felt that Salt Lake and Honolulu were worse than PDX at night.

Not trying to be contrary or pick a fight, just weighing my personal experiences against other cities. PDX still feels safer to me than some others.

 

[Sgt Nambu]

I have kept a telescoping baton in my truck since 1994. When I got it I went and talked with the desk Sargent at the East Precinct in PDX and he told me its legal but don't conceal it. I have carried it on that basis ever since. So, take with a big grain of salt! Old information, not from an Attourney! Don't hit bone! It will shatter! Hit major muscle groups, it will render that limb useless temporarily.

 

[40calruler]

I can't think of many cities that don't become dangerous after dark. That's when the bad guys come out to play. It's hardly unique to Portland, and yes, it's worse in other cities (such as those I listed in an earlier post). I worked graveyard shift in PDX for some time - from SW to NW (before it was a fully developed Pearl district) - moving from place to place. Yes, I saw bad people, but no one ever attacked me. Maybe it's just me - I'm a big guy, 6'1" and I don't timidly walk with my head down like some folks who become victims. I think it's a good idea to be prepared, aware and vigilant anytime you're out after dark. Being in a group is a bonus if you can pull it off.

I didn't see that the discussion was about night time specifically, some folks seemed to indicate PDX was bad and didn't qualify after midnight as the key point. I still find myself in PDX after dark from time to time - and yes, I carry when I do. But after being in some other cities after dark, I still feel that PDX is safer - in my opinion - than many others. Heck, I felt that Salt Lake and Honolulu were worse than PDX at night.

Not trying to be contrary or pick a fight, just weighing my personal experiences against other cities. PDX still feels safer to me than some others.

I agree. Salt lake is a crap hole. Portland is not near as bad as some places but can be very bad. During the day it is fine for the most part and as you said if you hold your head up and are over 6' as you and I are you do not look like the guy to go after to the punks. A sense of confidence helps a lot. My issue is I cannot give my employees or others that sense so I have run into too many bad situations due to a large crew and some who look like an easy victim. To say it is not so bad is a big stretch but to say it is better than many other place is absolutely true. I had to go to our headquarters in NY and stayed in Brooklyn. Portland at night started looking like a playground after a few days there. Honolulu was surprising to me as well with how many homeless and street thugs there are in a tourist area. Just a few wrong turns and it is no longer so welcoming there. You can still get laid like off the plane but it costs money and is a lot different lay.

 

[40calruler]

I have kept a telescoping baton in my truck since 1994. When I got it I went and talked with the desk Sargent at the East Precinct in PDX and he told me its legal but don't conceal it. I have carried it on that basis ever since. So, take with a big grain of salt! Old information, not from an Attourney! Don't hit bone! It will shatter! Hit major muscle groups, it will render that limb useless temporarily.

I have one of those. Never had to use it but I think from messing with it there would be some major damage with a full swing. I bought every one of my crew members Sabre spray to have on their belt and that has eased many minds and settled many situations for them. I could not remember the brand name since it just sits under my seat but someone mentioned it here and it is the best stuff I looked into. My firearm would be a last ditch resort as I hope I never run into a situation that I need to shoot anyone and if I draw when someone is coming at me it will not be to fire a warning shot. Hopefully the mace will just keep doing its job and keep everyone safe.

 

[etrain16]

I agree. Salt lake is a crap hole. Portland is not near as bad as some places but can be very bad. During the day it is fine for the most part and as you said if you hold your head up and are over 6' as you and I are you do not look like the guy to go after to the punks. A sense of confidence helps a lot. My issue is I cannot give my employees or others that sense so I have run into too many bad situations due to a large crew and some who look like an easy victim. To say it is not so bad is a big stretch but to say it is better than many other place is absolutely true. I had to go to our headquarters in NY and stayed in Brooklyn. Portland at night started looking like a playground after a few days there. Honolulu was surprising to me as well with how many homeless and street thugs there are in a tourist area. Just a few wrong turns and it is no longer so welcoming there. You can still get laid like off the plane but it costs money and is a lot different lay.

Having and presenting self-confidence is huge as you say. Unfortunately, not everyone comes across that way and the bad guys can pick the 'weak' ones out of a crowd. I was actually taught how to carry myself by a teacher years ago - he noticed I tended to look down toward the ground - his solution - stand up straight, shoulders back, look ahead and walk like you own the place. Works like a charm in most cases, but you've got to have the balls to back it up if someone calls you on it.

My scariest PDX event happened after getting out of night school (apprenticeship training) years ago - our school was off 43rd and Killingsworth. I had to park off-site that day rather than in the fenced parking, so I found myself walking about a block down Killingsworth about 10:00 at night. Walking by a small store, about 10 cars pulled in altogether and a bunch of gang-banger looking guys stepped out of their cars and started eyeing me. I was suddenly aware of how out of place I looked in that area. I was pretty freaked, but kept walking confidently and got in my car and drove away. They didn't do anything other than to make me think about how little I could have done if they had come after me.

Honolulu really surprised me too, we were approached several times by small groups of guys looking for handouts, etc, and they didn't appreciate the 'no' I gave them - it never went further than that, but I kept very aware from that point on. Got a lot of the same in Baltimore too - in fact, I've never had as many homeless people stop me in my tracks by stepping right in front of me as I did in Baltimore.

As a general rule, I try not to be out, on my own, in any downtown environment whenever I can avoid it. Daytime is a much better time to get my work done as long as work allows. I originally got my CHL back in 1994 because I had started working nights around that time and wanted the extra protection. Nighttime is a tough time due to the added 'helps' for the bad folks - fewer people around, stores closed, less light so you can hide easily.

 

[Riot]

You could have...

Pulled out your phone and called the police, then recorded the altercation so that they could be identified later.

Assisted the other guy in pulling off the kids, maybe even enlisting other "on lookers" as well.


I have to go through these scenarios on a daily basis at work. Would anything have prevented you from grabbing up say- a club or broom stick and hitting off the attackers? I have a huge pry-bar in the back of my jeep I could use for that...also just spraying everyone off with a fire-extinguisher (if you have one) would have probably stopped it as well.

 

[40calruler]

That is a hard thing to learn. I used to do the same. Look down a lot and not make eye contact. I entered the corporate world and my mentor sent me to a course for confidence in the boardroom etc. It works there and on the street. Hold your head up and look right at the couple of "tough guys" and they tend to wonder why you seem to have no fear of them and leave you be...even if you are crapping your pants as you described the cars pulling up. I have had to hold that posture when I wanted to run like hell as well and it is not easy. I have a bad taste for downtown simply because in my job it just is a lot if nights and lots of loons. I have had employees get chased, spit on, punched, kicked, robbed. I know that is not the norm but it is for us so I am a little biased on how "bad" SW can be.
If I could avoid all of that I would quit and do something else in a heartbeat but with decent pay a wife and kids it is not a good time to be looking to start over at a new place. I just really get heated when people do stand and watch as someone gets the crap kicked out of them. Even though they may not be family it is our community and I was raised to step in when others are picking on someone weak..in fact my father pretty much pounded that in my head with his hatred of bullies and the actions he took against them. He had a job that put him on the streets at night a lot and seemed to find trouble or trouble found him all the time. I guess not many kids had their dad teaching them to box at 7 and keeping them in the ring most of their childhood. It definitely made it a lot easier for me to be willing to jump in when the need is there though.

 

[Quacky88]

I agree with 40Cal and Etrain. Having spent a lot of time in other major U.S. cites: D.C., Atlanta, Honolulu, Trenton(the worst) and growing up outside of Los Angeles, Portland really doesn't compare in threat of danger or crime wise in density to any which is why I love the PNW.... And in above mentioned areas your Naked so to speak (no CHL) and the Criminals have a full-deck and know it, which when your a "Haulie" in Honolulu and 350lb. Beasts are stalking the streets is NO BUENO. I do believe Good Samaritans should do our part when possible to check these THUGS and keep our cities from turning into a brother of the cesspits above. Being raised similar to 40Cal and always having that mentality I think its important to have an overwhelming collective good to remind these dirtbags what will happen if they choose to commit such acts. Voting for the right policies and politicians and doing the right thing in the moment will go a long way....

 

[The Heretic]

In the military (USCG) we got LE training from OR state police on how to use batons (wood nightstick, not metal). They taught us to not rear back and use a full swing - for one thing it looks bad when seen in photos (or vids now):



And you can indeed break bones, which looks bad in news and official reports.

What they instead taught was to use the tip of the baton to hit the wrist/hand, elbow, hip, knee, shoulder.

You use a twist of the wrist - hold your hand out in front of you and imagine a baton in in it, now twist your wrist and forearm violently inwards (you can do it outwards too, but not as easily and you have less area you can cover).

It was 30+ years ago and I can still do it reflexively today. The velocity of the tip of the baton will be enough to really hurt whatever you strike, hopefully without breaking anything.

We practiced with the plastic tubes that florescent lights come in (to protect them from breakage). Our partner would have a rubber gun or knife in their hand and we would practice striking them. Believe me - it really stings even with that lightweight hollow tube - enough to make most people drop what they have in their hand. Often, if they did it right, your hand or arm would be numb for a few minutes.

You can imagine what that would be like with a baton or nightstick or something like that. You can still break bones, especially in the wrist/hand area, but you are less likely to cause permanent damage of the kind that will look bad in court - especially if the person had a knife or gun in their hand.

It is a lot quicker move and doesn't leave you open near as much as a full swing with the arm. Also, it is better for cramped quarters - something we had to deal with - it doesn't require a full swing.

 

[40calruler]

I agree with 40Cal and Etrain. Having spent a lot of time in other major U.S. cites: D.C., Atlanta, Honolulu, Trenton(the worst) and growing up outside of Los Angeles, Portland really doesn't compare in threat of danger or crime wise in density to any which is why I love the PNW.... And in above mentioned areas your Naked so to speak (no CHL) and the Criminals have a full-deck and know it, which when your a "Haulie" in Honolulu and 350lb. Beasts are stalking the streets is NO BUENO. I do believe Good Samaritans should do our part when possible to check these THUGS and keep our cities from turning into a brother of the cesspits above. Voting for the right policies and politicians and doing the right thing in the moment will go a long way....

There is a dude that seems to like to hang out around 3rd and alder and always has a joint hanging out of his mouth..aside from when he is yelling at the cops for harassing him. He has to be 6'8" or bigger and not at all chubby. My first run in with him I was angry because he had yelled at a girl that worked for me. I saw him the next day and talked to him calmly about me being concerned for her safety and that I was out of line for being in his face. Now this guy will get up and stand behind me as "back up" when there are nasty people who are up to no good.
Crazy to think that I could have kept him an enemy but my simply apology has caused him to probably save me from a fight multiple times just because anyone looking at the giant towering over me at 6'2" is a whole lot more concerned than just little old me. Funny how talking things over can completely change how you view someone. I buy him subway on a semi regular basis and tell the police he is fine sitting on the steps of our property. Harmless to me but scares the hell out of anyone that does not know him.

 

[etrain16]

There is a dude that seems to like to hang out around 3rd and alder and always has a joint hanging out of his mouth..aside from when he is yelling at the cops for harassing him. He has to be 6'8" or bigger and not at all chubby. My first run in with him I was angry because he had yelled at a girl that worked for me. I saw him the next day and talked to him calmly about me being concerned for her safety and that I was out of line for being in his face. Now this guy will get up and stand behind me as "back up" when there are nasty people who are up to no good.
Crazy to think that I could have kept him an enemy but my simply apology has caused him to probably save me from a fight multiple times just because anyone looking at the giant towering over me at 6'2" is a whole lot more concerned than just little old me. Funny how talking things over can completely change how you view someone. I buy him subway on a semi regular basis and tell the police he is fine sitting on the steps of our property. Harmless to me but scares the hell out of anyone that does not know him.

I've got a co-worker like that. If you saw him coming toward you down the street, you'd cross the street to avoid him. Bada$$ biker dude, long beard, 6'3" and carries himself like he owns the world. In person, he's a genuinely kind guy. Nice to talk to and would give you the shirt off his back. He's also a gun guy and loves to chat about guns. But people that don't know him leave him alone. It's always nice to know some folks like that should you ever need them to back you up. I do find that some folks are a bit quick to jump to conclusions about people based on how they look - but of course the context of how, where and when you encounter them has a lot to do with that. Sounds like you made a good friend down there, and that's pretty darn valuable to your employees.

 

[Joe13]

The warning shot thing should be nipped in the bud...

The only thing a warning shot will get you is a one way trip to the county cell while your lawyer sorts it out.


I'm with some of the others; there are places in Chicago that the police will not enter without large numbers. That's not the case here at all.

If you carry yourself, as others have said, like you own the place - you will most likely be left alone.

Weak targets are easy targets and gangbangers will pick up on that. Mostly they are involved with and worried about other gangbangers though.

I have worked all over PDX, from sandy and Gresham to Hillsboro and lake Oswego at all hours of the day and night at all times if the year.

Never had a hint of an issue; I'm 6'1" and 275 so I'm sure that's not everyone situation.

In the end, your responsible for staying in places you feel safe or take your side arm or a friend with you if you have to go outside your comfort zone.


The biggest laugh I've had was at some poor persons remark, long ago, about the "ghettos" in Vancouer and Portland being unsafe for civilians.