I dare you to take action against 114

[PiratePast40]

What some of us have been working on instead...

Oregon’s Measure 114 sees first challenge: Oregon Firearms Federation files lawsuit to try to stop strict new gun limits

The Oregon Firearms Federation late Friday filed a federal suit against Gov. Kate Brown and the state’s attorney general, urging a judge to bar the recent voter-approved gun control Measure 114 from taking effect next month.

www.oregonlive.com

I had no idea you were a plaintiff, author of the document, or lawyer filing the complaint. Thank you very much for your efforts.

What I find puzzling is why those that contribute would discourage others from participating in rallies, fundraising activities, or informational meetings and efforts. Kevin Starrett himself attended the rally yesterday and spoke about participation, and how important it was that we all stick together and keep the movement moving forward.

 

[DukeLancington]

I have noticed you offering several after-action criticisms of the No on 114 effort. Please explain clearly how you would have done it better with 1/17th the money and 100% of the news media backing the other side. And how you would fundraise to get to parity with the other side so we could buy the exposure they got for free.

Please be specific so we can learn for the road ahead. We need a clearer explanation.

And also please tell us what YOU YOURSELF DID in the last 6 months to support our side. Thanks.

I am a democratic precinct committee person. I offered to do lit drops in my precinct. The no on 114 had no lit printed, and the "lit" they sent me to print on my own was literally a sheet of paper with black and white text on it. Aka a literal joke.

If you want to win you need to recruit volunteers to 1) do fundraising asks and 2) knock on doors. You also need lit that is well-produced and doesn't have idiotic insulting slogans like "don't be fooled".

As for what I did I talked to dozens of democrats and flipped their votes from yes to no. If the no on 114 campaign had any level of organization I could have done more, but I don't have time to print lit.

I had no idea you were a plaintiff, author of the document, or lawyer filing the complaint. Thank you very much for your efforts.

What I find puzzling is why those that contribute would discourage others from participating in rallies, fundraising activities, or informational meetings and efforts. Kevin Starrett himself attended the rally yesterday and spoke about participation, and how important it was that we all stick together and keep the movement moving forward.

If he wants us to all stick together why does he use such inflammatory racist, homophobic, and anti-semitic rhetoric?

 

[BPOR11]

Media are not our friends.

Like the Black Plague was a minor inconvenience.

 

[PiratePast40]

If he wants us to all stick together why does he use such inflammatory racist, homophobic, and anti-semitic rhetoric?

You know full well the context was about supporting groups taking legal action.

If you're talking about the race baiting little twit from Eugene, that is supposedly representing the BIPOC community, there's nothing racist about calling out an idiot that believe all black criminals need to be released from prison, and then calling firearms owners racist.

But you do you and keep up the white knighting. Thanks for the help, you can leave now.

 

[dancinghippos]

I am a democratic precinct committee person. I offered to do lit drops in my precinct. The no on 114 had no lit printed, and the "lit" they sent me to print on my own was literally a sheet of paper with black and white text on it. Aka a literal joke.

To whom did you make that offer? I have been here on this topic since March posting material and soliciting feedback and help.

With respect to the black and white literature, we aren't used to the big budgets of DNC, Silicon Valley and Bloomberg money. It's only our money. We did what we could but better printing was out of reach.

We haven't received friendly or even neutral media coverage until after the election when it was too late to matter. Our reach-outs to them were ignored. But the LEVO people got all kinds of great coverage. Perhaps if we had known of your offer then, we could have asked you to reach out with some of your Dem 2A supporters to get us some honest coverage.

Had we heard from you 3-6 months ago, we would have reminded you that a person with your position and connections could open doors that were closed to us at the Oregonian and TV stations. A note from you to any of them saying, "Hey, it isn't just right wingers, it's us too. Please listen and give us some fair coverage" from a Party rep would have done wonders, along with some letters to the editor from the people whose votes you flipped.

If you want to win you need to recruit volunteers to 1) do fundraising asks and 2) knock on doors. You also need lit that is well-produced and doesn't have idiotic insulting slogans like "don't be fooled".

We did recruit volunteers. We recruited people here and in gun clubs and in gun stores. Where else? The union leaders weren't "suggesting" their members come out to help like they do in Party-supported causes. And we did not have teachers organizing "spontaneous" school walkouts to demonstrate for "gun safety" in front of pre-positioned friendly news cameras. Your connections and organizational skills would have been a big help there.

How would you suggest that we fundraise now to prepare for the next time?

As for what I did I talked to dozens of democrats and flipped their votes from yes to no.

Thank you.

If the no on 114 campaign had any level of organization I could have done more, but I don't have time to print lit.

I wrote material and paid for printing out of my own pocket. Many others did too.

I posted drafts here for comment and reproduction. Would have been nice to hear from you then. I would have cheerfully listened and made changes, or even another flyer just for your team of volunteers to distribute. Had I heard from you then.

The four color glossies were in LEVO's budget but not ours. It was just us and the money in our pocket trying to argue against the widely disseminated notion that violent street crime and suicides would be stopped by limiting the rights of innocent gun owners.

Where I appreciate that you did something to help with the outcome, had we known someone as well connected as you was willing to help 3 months ago, we would have happily used your help and your connections.

Perhaps we can meet somewhere for coffee and figure out what we could do together to get it right the next time. Feel free to PM me.

 

[gun4me]

I'm currently researching larger groups that have been successful with litigation in this arena such as the Firearms Policy Coalition. What we need now is someone, with support of others, who has been down this road before. Having a bunch of folks with little financial backing or experience is likely not going to be a road to success. Does anyone know if the FPC is involved with this yet? If not, I'll gladly see what it takes to get them involved (firearmspolicy.org).

As stated above, I don't think shotgunning with a bunch of small lawsuits, each spending money to conduct the same research 100 times is a roadmap to success. We don't just need attorneys, we need experienced, litigators who can wear the, been there-done that-have the t-shirt hat. This possibly means someone not local. NRA donated $25k and then it appears they are going to be fined $8,000 for not reporting the donation in time. We need to help those who are supporting to avoid crap like this.

As for rallies and such, please understand that many of us have been meeting with other people and groups (prior to the election) and don't necessarily attend these events for various reasons. One is that they are an echo chamber where everyone there is already in the choir, and the MSM is rarely going to cover the event or give it a legitimate voice. They will find the visually worst representative for our cause and interview them. Not saying we shouldn't have them, but time is a valuable and limited resource. I'd like to see a way for us to channel our funding and talents to an experienced litigator and currently focusing on this.

Thank you for all your efforts @PiratePast40 and thank you for keeping us informed!!!

Go to the Oregon Firearms Federation. (www.oregonfirearms.org). They are leading the charge in the first lawsuit filed, along with a Sheriff. Go to their website and donate to the lawsuit.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I had no idea you were a plaintiff, author of the document, or lawyer filing the complaint. Thank you very much for your efforts.

What I find puzzling is why those that contribute would discourage others from participating in rallies, fundraising activities, or informational meetings and efforts. Kevin Starrett himself attended the rally yesterday and spoke about participation, and how important it was that we all stick together and keep the movement moving forward.

I'm not discouraging people from being active, but in a world with finite resources as far as people, money, enthusiasm, and time we should recognize that we are no longer in the realm of PR, rallies, and votes. We are now in the legal world, where the only thing that matters is money. To the extent that rallies and such are aimed toward raising money, by all means, have at it. We're going to need every cent. But let's not waste our time and energy throwing public tantrums. That won't accomplish anything.

 

[PiratePast40]

I'm not discouraging people from being active, but in a world with finite resources as far as people, money, enthusiasm, and time we should recognize that we are no longer in the realm of PR, rallies, and votes. We are now in the legal world, where the only thing that matters is money. To the extent that rallies and such are aimed toward raising money, by all means, have at it. We're going to need every cent. But let's not waste our time and energy throwing public tantrums. That won't accomplish anything.

I didn't think I was throwing a temper tantrum. I was certainly calling out LEVO and how they used deceit in the title and description to gain support, but I spent much more time on responsibility and actions going forward. What part of my speech, or anyone else's, did you think was throwing a temper tantrum? I would genuinely like a critique. I was humbled and honored to be invited to speak and took it quite seriously. My theme was about how we failed to prosecute due diligence in the beginning and how we need to do better in the future. Those that were present at the beginning, when the initiatives first came out, were sounding the alarm and should not have been there alone. We failed them in that regard. I thought it was important to acknowledge that.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I didn't think I was throwing a temper tantrum. I was certainly calling out LEVO and how they used deceit in the title and description to gain support, but I spent much more time on responsibility and actions going forward. What part of my speech, or anyone else's, did you think was throwing a temper tantrum? I would genuinely like a critique. I was humbled and honored to be invited to speak and took it quite seriously. My theme was about how we failed to prosecute due diligence in the beginning and how we need to do better in the future. Those that were present at the beginning, when the initiatives first came out, were sounding the alarm and should not have been there alone. We failed them in that regard. I thought it was important to acknowledge that.

I wasn't referring to you at all. I was referring to those that I see now who are all butthurt and yelling "Shall not be infringed!", and wanting to march on Salem. Where were they when their statements and actions might have made a difference? They pay no attention until they are kicked in the teeth, wake up, look around, and are shocked and appalled that WE let this happen too them. WE've been pleading with them to speak up, to act, to vote for years now and they slept on. It's apparently just too hard to actually do anything for themselves.

 

[PiratePast40]

What you're saying is my message exactly. Those that show up to meetings and rallies are the ones that are interested in what's going on and are the ones that are looking for direction as to what they can do. Encouraging the the base is, in my opinion, what it takes to get more people involved. When we strengthen and encourage the base, we get more participation. I don't know how else to reach out. It's about informing people of the risks we face, consequences of inaction, and some actual action steps they can take.

I agree that it's mostly about sending lawyers and money at this point, but we can also reach out to the governor, attorney general, SoS, and chair of the senate judiciary committee to stop wasting the taxpayers time and money on efforts that will only be defeated in court.

 

[WillametteWill]

Yeah, you have to do fundraising lol. People don't just magically donate money.

Well, their side actually does have some magic:

Connie Ballmer	$750,000.00	$0.00	$750,000.00
National Education Association	$500,000.00	$0.00	$500,000.00
Nicolas Hanauer	$250,000.00	$0.00	$250,000.00
Sixteen Thirty Fund	$250,000.00	$0.00	$250,000.00
Everytown for Gun Safety Action Fund, Inc PAC	$155,000.00	$0.00

You don't get that money by knocking on doors. All of these are out of state donations that supported 114. The smallest of these is five times larger than our largest donation from OFF pac.

This forum is fundraising right here. We are gathering information and deciding where our money can best help. Litigation is expensive and my view is that we need a heavy hitter with national experience in this fight. Since I didn't marry a billionaire and don't have an extra threequarters of a million dollars lying around I have to choose wisely. (I did marry a redhead who is on fire about this though.) FPC seems a good direction as they do this for a living. I think it is great OFF has filed a suit but my $.02 is we need some focus to help with our limited resources.

On another note, I attended the rally in Salem on Saturday. These are usually not my thing but I will give credit when due and I think this was also helpful to provided information to the already believers and help raise some funds. @PiratePast40 gave a good talk as did Kevin from OFF.

 

[PiratePast40]

Thanks for the callout and thanks to you and other forum members that attended.

 

[PiratePast40]

I just heard on Jeff Kroptf's KSLM talk show this morning, that the legislature want to make 114 prosecutable as soon as possible. I'm not sure what that actually means or where to get a citation for the information. Can anyone else help out with a reference and explanation so we can start making passing the word and taking action? @ZigZagZeke, and @WillametteWill , you guys seem to be knowledgeable about the legal and legistative end of things, can you shine some light on this development?

 

[WillametteWill]

I just heard on Jeff Kroptf's KSLM talk show this morning, that the legislature want to make 114 prosecutable as soon as possible. I'm not sure what that actually means or where to get a citation for the information. Can anyone else help out with a reference and explanation so we can start making passing the word and taking action? @ZigZagZeke, and @WillametteWill , you guys seem to be knowledgeable about the legal and legistative end of things, can you shine some light on this development?

I'll see what I can find, and I suspect that they are seeking to get everything certified and get it into codified, black letter law asap. Would also suspect they are seeking to have someone make a decision as to the shortest possible time before everything is enforceable. This may also mean working with OSP as they are under control at the state level and we have already seen how many of the Sheriffs feel about enforcement. I suspect FFL's will be a target to keep them in line.

 

[PiratePast40]

I'll see what I can find, and I suspect that they are seeking to get everything certified and get it into codified, black letter law asap. Would also suspect they are seeking to have someone make a decision as to the shortest possible time before everything is enforceable. This may also mean working with OSP as they are under control at the state level and we have already seen how many of the Sheriffs feel about enforcement. I suspect FFL's will be a target to keep them in line.

@Librarian, is this in your area of expertise?

 

[dancinghippos]

I wasn't referring to you at all. I was referring to those that I see now who are all butthurt and yelling "Shall not be infringed!", and wanting to march on Salem. Where were they when their statements and actions might have made a difference? They pay no attention until they are kicked in the teeth, wake up, look around, and are shocked and appalled that WE let this happen too them. WE've been pleading with them to speak up, to act, to vote for years now and they slept on. It's apparently just too hard to actually do anything for themselves.

The beauty of doing nothing is that you can do it perfectly. Only when you do something is it almost impossible to do it without mistakes. Therefore people who are contributing nothing to society, except their constant criticisms, can feel both intellectually and morally superior. — Thomas Sowell

 

[WillametteWill]

The beauty of doing nothing is that you can do it perfectly. Only when you do something is it almost impossible to do it without mistakes. Therefore people who are contributing nothing to society, except their constant criticisms, can feel both intellectually and morally superior. — Thomas Sowell

Sage advice for life in general. Always the wisest man in the room is he.

 

[dancinghippos]

Well, their side actually does have some magic:

Connie Ballmer	$750,000.00	$0.00	$750,000.00
National Education Association	$500,000.00	$0.00	$500,000.00
Nicolas Hanauer	$250,000.00	$0.00	$250,000.00
Sixteen Thirty Fund	$250,000.00	$0.00	$250,000.00
Everytown for Gun Safety Action Fund, Inc PAC	$155,000.00	$0.00

You don't get that money by knocking on doors. All of these are out of state donations that supported 114. The smallest of these is five times larger than our largest donation from OFF pac.

I find it fascinating that the Dems continue to rant about rich peoples' outsized influence on politics yet this is what they support. Flexible rules I guess. People who live securely behind walls with weapons or armed security lecture us that walls are immoral and we should not have our own weapons for self defense.

 

[E4mafia]

Why is it there is never a big player pro 2A mega donor like they get? You'd think with how big guns are and how many wealthy people there are how is it that there is NEVER a pro 2A donor helping from in state/out of state?

Has there ever been one? Because I know it's mostly just been us collecting quarters in cushions and turning in cans to fight against deep stacks. Was thinking about this the other day at work.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I just heard on Jeff Kroptf's KSLM talk show this morning, that the legislature want to make 114 prosecutable as soon as possible. I'm not sure what that actually means or where to get a citation for the information. Can anyone else help out with a reference and explanation so we can start making passing the word and taking action? @ZigZagZeke, and @WillametteWill , you guys seem to be knowledgeable about the legal and legistative end of things, can you shine some light on this development?

I don't know of any particular advantage for the government in trying to get 114 implemented immediately, except that the Dems lost their super-majority in the legislature, so their leverage might decrease slightly after Jan 1st. I think they are just wanting to make sure they take advantage of the opportunity to make rules and solidify things before anyone has a chance to bring them to court. Perhaps they feel that the sooner they implement the measure the more people they will be able to exclude from being able to prove that they owned 30 round magazines before the ban. Maybe it's an effort to prevent people from stocking up on guns and magazines before the implementation deadline.

I'd like to point out one more time that delivery of guns bought now does not have to be delayed:

According to OFF:

"Please keep in mind, the Oregon State Police can delay you forever but as long as you are not DENIED, you may take possession of the firearm you are trying to purchase after "three business days have transpired." That's how the Feds put it. In other words, if you start the background check process on Monday, then Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday must "transpire" and you may have the gun on Friday. The State language can be found in ORS 166.412 and it reads as follows:

(c) If the department fails to provide a unique approval number to a gun dealer or to notify the gun dealer that the purchaser is disqualified under paragraph (a) of this subsection before the close of the gun dealer's next business day following the request by the dealer for a criminal history record check, the dealer may deliver the handgun to the purchaser.

Although this statute references "handgun" a later statute makes it clear that this applies to all guns.

Many gun dealers have been lied to for so long that they believe if they proceed with a transfer under these circumstances, they are somehow "liable." Maybe because for years they have been told this by folks at the OSP ID unit who kind of like to make stuff up.

If your dealer will not complete a transfer. Find another dealer."

The three day rule makes Dec. 1st the actual deadline for purchase if your dealer is willing to deliver as long as there is no official denial.