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How often do self-defenders empty their mag?

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by CHLChris, Dec 31, 2015.

  1. CHLChris

    CHLChris Portland Metro East Love me some guns! Bronze Supporter

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    In light of the recently indicted Chicago cop who shot 16 rounds at the knife-wielding yute, I'm wondering how often people end up emptying their mag at a bad guy.

    I have a lot of people in my circle of friends who are 100% convinced by the video that the cop shooting him 16 times equals murder. But I've read about the Tueller drill and am not so sure.

    This thread is NOT about the Chicago cop!! My question is this: how common is it for people who are genuinely in danger to keep shooting until the gun is empty?

    You know, not just 2 to the body and one to the head as if they were at the range, but just unloading out of fear or adrenaline or whatever.
     
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  2. KTM530XCW

    KTM530XCW Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    If I'm ever unfortunate enough to have to pull the trigger, i don't think I'd stop until they are limp on the ground.

    Once they are on the ground and no longer have a weapon in their hand, is hard to justify additional shots.
     
  3. DuneHopper

    DuneHopper Douglas County. Well-Known Member

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    Having come from this background and in the family.

    Law enforcement officers may use whatever force is reasonably necessary to effect an arrest or protect themselves (or others) from imminent harm. When using firearms, they should have specific targets and not engage in "cover fire" or "fire for effect" tactics commonly used by military personnel.

    However unlike "Rules of engagement" which is a term typically used by military units in foreign lands, often to describe guidelines for when military personnel may direct or return fire to a target. It is not a fitting phrase to describe law enforcement / citizen interaction. That said more and more we are seeing these rules applied to domestic engagements that people are being seen as obstacles and targets not citizens and suspects.
     
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  4. mikeybuck

    mikeybuck Clark county Active Member

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    Its like elk hunting. If he is still standing, you keep shooting.
     
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  5. CHLChris

    CHLChris Portland Metro East Love me some guns! Bronze Supporter

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    I've heard of people just shoot shoot shooting and not even realizing that they emptied the mag. But is that just myth? I don't recall reading an actual news story to that effect.
     
  6. Mark W.

    Mark W. Silverton, OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I'm not firing that last round until the new mag is headed for the well. That's all I got to say.

    Double tap reassess
     
  7. Sgt Nambu

    Sgt Nambu Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I'd like to be calm enough to cease fire after he drops and/or drops the weapon!
    Doubt I would be able to though!
     
  8. Cherpybird

    Cherpybird Portland Active Member

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    If an attacker is still approaching after two or three rounds you might want to consider emptying your magazine so they don't take it off you and shoot you.

    For the opportunist mugger etc, the presence of a gun might be enough to deter them. Possibly limit yourself to 3 - 5 rounds. This will look a lot less like you were enjoying it, and more remorseful than shooting someone 16 times, and leave less ammo for them to turn on you should you be disarmed.

    I'm not allowed to carry as I am not a citizen, but after pulling a can of mace on two people who tried their luck one New Years Eve, they turned away and ran.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2015
  9. P7id10T

    P7id10T Cedar Hills Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I don't know - I've never been in a gunfight.
    A boss/colleague who was stationed in Korea said he came face to face with a North Korean soldier at the DMZ, said they both drew simultaneously and emptied their mags at each other. No one was hit. His lesson to me was, you have no idea of the effect of adrenaline.

    If fist fights are any indication, I never stopped punching/kicking until I was pulled off or my opponent was clearly lights out. Same with ones I lost. Once adrenaline kicked in, my presence of mind was not that good.
     
  10. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

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    I don't know but it sounds like a job for the I don't always guy. Just saying.

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    th?&id=OIP.M12222feb9963423080637a15c270639aH2&w=233&h=299&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0.jpg
     
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  11. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    IMO officer Jason Van Dyke probably decided to air out Mr. McDonald before he even put the car in park. They might have even known each other from previous encounters; at any rate, don't think that incident is a very good example of "defensive shooting". It looks more like, "I'm sick of your idiot behavior" shooting, instead. Time may tell once they get to court.

    It's generally expected that very few defenders will shoot just one round and stop to see what may happen next. On the other hand, I don't know of many who've just kept going until empty.
     
  12. CHLChris

    CHLChris Portland Metro East Love me some guns! Bronze Supporter

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    Though I don't want the thread to devolve into one about that Chicago shooting, I must admit that is why I started thinking about the issue.

    A big part of me wants a reason to believe the shooting was justified, not just murder.

    And if I, definitely not a cop, were to reflexively unload on a bad guy to slide lock, would I be assumed a murderer?
     
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  13. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    I would think that the germane question would focus on whether the first shots were justified or not. Everything after that would be a matter of degree.
    The prosecutors may be inclined to infer intent by the quantity of shots fired while the defense could counter with adrenalin and fear for your life.
    As always "the truth" winds up being whatever the jury and judge think it is.
     
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  14. Hawaiian

    Hawaiian Tigard Oregon Well-Known Member

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    It will come down to when a jury believes the threat ended. If you continue to shoot after that, you are in trouble.
     
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  15. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

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    I'd think dragging around a fold up lawn chair and forty thirty round Glock mags would be bad form just on the face of it. Premeditated "abuse of a corpse" and all that? but everyone needs a hobby.
    maybe just pop the deserving soul in the nog?
     
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  16. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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    Certainlydef be jacked up trippn', yo!
     
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  17. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    Nobody seems to be able to answer your question,which is good. That ,in my mind would mean that 'we' don't unload into perps that often.
    Have you ever read about someone,a citizen, unloading their weapon into a bad guy? I can't recall any stories. And y'all know that would be a headline
    And I'm gunna guess the ones who said they would shoot until the body stopped twitching have never been in combat or shot someone. I haven't heard many combat vets talk much about how they would kill someone
    But it's fun to speculate how bad bubblegum you would be in that situation huh?
    But I digress.
    There is another story that was on here a years or 2 ago about a off duty cop working at a mall that saw the hits on the guy and he didn't go down till the bad guy got close enough to pull him in for 2 or 3 head shots.
    That cop was shot in the face on the first shot and I think 4 more times in the legs and body?
     
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  18. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

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    Absurdum reductio, yo. sayin
     
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  19. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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    Fo shizzle, muh nizzle!
     
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  20. clearconscience

    clearconscience Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    Aren't cops taught to empty the mag?

    I watched the video and I don't believe the officer did anything wrong. With the call they received and the perceived threat of the suspect at close proximity, his actions should be within the law.

    21ft. He was running toward them then kinda ran by. How fast could he have turned and closed that vary small gap between them?
    Pretty darn fast.
    With the suspect in his state of mind, what would happen if he was running towards other people?
    LEOs have a duty to protect themselves, and the protect the public.

    I'm not losing any sleep because a violent person acted stupid and aggressive towards police was shot and killed.


    Now the other shooting of the guy and his mom. I didn't get the full details, but it doesn't look good.
     
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