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How fast can a proned out subject shoot you?

Discussion in 'Education & Training' started by wichaka, Mar 15, 2010.

  1. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    If folks aren't aware of current studies going on about reaction times and human dynamics during actual shootings, you would be well ahead of the game to check out Force Science at http://www.forcescience.org/

    In a recent study taken at Hillsboro P.D., Force Science visited the local dept. to do some investigating on the reaction time(s) of being able to draw and fire from the prone position.

    Interesting stuff, as things aren't as easy out in the real world as they may seem.

    http://watch.discoverychannel.ca/daily-planet/march-2010/daily-planet---march-11-2010/#clip275641
     
  2. Kimber Custom

    Kimber Custom Vancouver, WA Bronze Vendor Bronze Vendor

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    I was in a training similar to that and I was suprised at how fast the guy turned and shot me 3 times even though I had him covered and I knew he had the gun.
     
  3. elsullo

    elsullo Portland Oregon New Member

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    Here in Portland there has recently been a great racial turmoil over the latest controversial "suicide-by-cop". Even Jessie Jackson, a man who I USED to have great respect for, just HAD to fly in to lead a protest march over the "racist execution." This week there was a huge city government hearing, about reconstituing the Police Oversight Committee, full of angry citizens twisting this tragedy into a racial cause. Much was made about the fact that the police let the shot man lie there for thirty minutes until the Tactical Squad could arrive with a bullet-proof shield, which nobody else had.

    If only all of those angry demonstators would view this research video and get some perspective on what a deadly danger a fallen suspect could be to the police!............................elsullo :cool:
     
  4. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    Nice post!

    Put yourself in this position, you've found a subject that broke into your house and they surrender. Now what? You prone the person out and wait for LE to show, but in the meantime you've got to keep them covered.
     
  5. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

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    I can't get the video to work.

    :-(
     
  6. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    I just tried it, and it works for me.
     
  7. Spray-n-pray

    Spray-n-pray Battle Ground Moderator Staff Member

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    Wow, that's pretty eye-opening.
     
  8. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    I was reading in a thread how people are wanting real world 'stuff', well here you have it.

    Things aren't always as easy cut and dried as it seems.

    People do get shot in the back, from the obvious lag time in the brain that has to process things before we act/react, and by the time we act the person in front of us can be turning. It happens more than one thinks...but with the media giving a slanted view of things, it's hard to get some people out from the cheap seats view.

    If you review the material on the Force Science web site, that'll give everyone things to ponder.
     
  9. Riot

    Riot Benton County, Washington Well-Known Member

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    Love the site...too bad it is open for every Joe Blow. I sent them 7 more suggestions.
     
  10. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    Wow. On that forcescience.org site, I read this: Link and was amazed at how little I know. Time to do some more practicing. It obviously isn't enough to just know how to shoot a gun.

    I wonder how many officers have wrongfully gone to jail because of legitimate inabilities (human limitations) to see everything or to recall everything after a shooting, and therefore gave inaccurate testimony which didn't align with the forensics. I wonder how many have died because they didn't start reacting soon enough, or know where to focus their eyes?
     
  11. ZachS

    ZachS Eugene/PDX Active Member

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    Probably a lot. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously inaccurate to begin with...



    Taser's been putting cameras in their... tasers for years, and now they have one that officers can wear on their heads. I bet it would be a lot easier to convince departments to adopt cameras that attach to the accessory rail of duty weapons and begin recording when the weapon is drawn. I wager that such a system would exonerate a lot of officers involved in controversial shootings.
     
  12. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    What I need to do is practice looking at the target, and seeing the sights or even just aligning the whole gun in my peripheral vision, instead of looking at the sights which blurs out the target. Since most uses of a gun for self defense occur at relatively close range, I don't think it will be long before I can hit the target well.

    I'm going to start with a .22lr Ruger Standard so I won't feel so guilty about using so much ammo, LOL. Looks like I need several thousand rounds of this practice right away.

    Dang I'd hate to be a LEO. You have to make a split second, life dependent decision within all human physical and mental limitations, and then the public gets to judge you at leisure.
     
  13. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    I've told this here before, but the first time I shot a bull elk, he came out of nowhere and I had little time to react.

    After I shot him I realized that I hadn't heard the noise of the rifle, I didn't feel the rifle kick, and I had no idea how many rounds I had fired even though it was a bolt action I had to work. (It was 2 when I had time to check my mag and the ground.) I guess that's what they call "buck fever" although I felt calm enough and aimed and shot well in the moment.


    Well, I just learned that from the article I linked above and have to admit that's a new concept to me. It makes total sense and I'm going to put a few thousand rounds down range just practicing it. I am lucky that I can do it right out my back door choosing a wide range of targets.
     
  14. JRV

    JRV Vancouver,Wa Member

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    A consistent presentation from the holster works wonders to put the gun in the same place every time.

    Consistency: doing things in the same way and at the same place EVERY TIME.

    As far as sights use them when needed. Your focus should be on the target, not 3mm wide piece of medal.
     
  15. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    What I came away with was a feeling that I might need to draw from awkward positions (seated in a car, stretched out on a picnic blanket, etc.?) and that I needed to be ready to fight from any position at any unexpected time.

    While I understand and agree with what you're saying, my own personal fault I see here is that my practice has been standing, looking at an upright target too much of the time. In other words, I've been too self-satisfied with hitting good groups in range practice.

    Sorta off topic, I've heard that some of the kids going to LEO school at Monmouth are shooting really well due to use of video games. Don't know if that's true, but I have two LEO's in my family, one a brand new one and one older who tell me that.
     
  16. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    I posted this in another thread, but I think it fits here as well;

    Once the front sight is on the target, you can pretty much forget about it, as it's not going to move unless you consciously move it off.

    We have a self centering device built in to most of us. Pick an object across the room and point at it. Am not a betting man, but will lay some good money down that you're pointing to the middle of it, yet I didn't ask you to. Of all the hundreds of shooters I have trained, I have yet to find anyone that won't be pointing at the middle of said object. Every human will instinctively point to the middle of whatever shape they are looking at.

    Next with your handgun, assembled or just the bare slide, obtain the perfect slight alignment and sight picture on the same object, or pick another.
    Try as hard as you can to keep equal light on each side of the front sight as it sits in the rear sight. No matter what you do to keep that perfect sight alignment and picture, you'll always be keeping it in the middle or on target. But yet you won't be able to keep a 'perfect' alignment very long. Why? Because we have two things fighting against it...a heart pumping, and lungs that need to breathe.
    The movement of the sights cannot be predicted, but your front sight will always come back to the middle of your target. You do not have to physically or consciously manipulate the sights back to the middle, the subconscious will keep the sights in the middle with proper sight alignment and placement. The aiming portion of the shot is done.

    The only conscience thing you will ever have to do after that is press the trigger. If you do not concentrate on that, in other words...if it's not the last thing you think about when the shot went off, then you will have problems.

    Keep saying to yourself "Keep Pressing, Keep Pressing, Keep Pressing" over and over until the shot goes off. Try it, and I bet you'll see a great difference in your shot placement.

    The above is for basic marksmanship, and is a good foundation for combat shooting. Work with it to the point where everything is done unconsciously, and you wont have to think about your sights, or the trigger press...it'll come naturally.

    Also, every shot fired, manipulation etc., is another repetition to further ingrain your training. Fight the urge to go out with friends and blast away. Every proper trigger press is another proper repetition for your training.

    Proper consistency is the key to any training regimen. Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.
     
  17. SSG

    SSG Lane County New Member

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    I thought the vid was interesting...but more of the 'trick shooter' type scenario...

    I guess that's part of job being a cop...that one day they might run into some guy that was a decent shooter, ex-special forces, IPSC shooter ect.....

    Personaly, in the vid, I think the guy running would have just started shooting from the doorway, used the building as cover, instead of trying to be sneaky and shoot from the ground, with two cops covering him with guns...
     
  18. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    You're probably right, and that makes sense.

    I'd think the same thing, but if I was wrong and his first instinct was to run, and he didn't decide to fight until that last second, I could get real dead. :)

    He doesn't have to be an expert shot either. He just has to get lucky once. After all, that's pretty close range and even he has a natural instinct for pointing.

    The lesson I'm taking away from this is to "expect the unexpected."

    $.02
     
  19. JRV

    JRV Vancouver,Wa Member

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    I got your point about drawing/shooting from unorthodox positions. Learn to work from those positions and be consistent with presentation every time.

    As far as this front sight press stuff. BS. Point the gun at what you want to shoot, have it in and parallel with your line of sight, focus on the threat, touch press.

    It's not rocket science. The first drill I run students through is just that. Focus on the threat/target extend, touch, press while focused on the threat/target. Someone who has never shot without using sights will gets the hits. The goal is to figure out your limitations and when you NEED your sights.

    Like I said before I want my attention on the threat, not a 3mm piece of medal.
     
  20. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    Yep, the threat is out in front of you, not on the end of the your gun.