How fast can a proned out subject shoot you?

[SSG]

It's funny, there almost isn't enough time in a day to do all the gun training really needed. I could see every morning working on drawing and shooting from inside personal space, to 100 yards...then working on shooting from cars, on my back, sideways, through windows, in trees...now let's work on the weak hand...that could be a full time job...

Then we start working on assault rifles, shotguns, long distance stuff..
Disarms, simunition, scenarios..plus all the cardio, weights...knife training..sticks...

Car training...rappeling, entry work...non lethal would be fun..escape and evasion...lock picking...languages, planes, helos, boats....

We need a cool school for all this stuff...ESI is about as close as I have seen...

 

[JRV]

Yep, the threat is out in front of you, not on the end of the your gun.

Look at us agreeing on something. LOL

If you always put the gun in the same place you don't need that cognitive thought of "is the gun in the right place" be it one handed, two, or a unorthodox shooting position. Unless you're shooting from total retention, you can always have the gun in and parallel with your line of sight. If it is there and your focused on the threat you can get combat accurate hits. The target will always dictate the need for precision. You need to push yourself and find out when you NEED to use the sights.

 

[Gunner3456]

Yep, the threat is out in front of you, not on the end of the your gun.

OK, I get it. This is good stuff.

 

[wichaka]

Look at us agreeing on something. LOL

If you always put the gun in the same place you don't need that cognitive thought of "is the gun in the right place" be it one handed, two, or a unorthodox shooting position. Unless you're shooting from total retention, you can always have the gun in and parallel with your line of sight. If it is there and your focused on the threat you can get combat accurate hits. The target will always dictate the need for precision. You need to push yourself and find out when you NEED to use the sights.

Yep, now we're on the same page. As I stated above...when first starting to shoot, you'll find once the sights are on target, they'll stay there unless you consciously pull them off or fall down. So its kinda like, set 'em, then forget 'em. The body has a natural pointing ability, if you allow it to happen. Over ride it, and you're in for a loooooong day.

Over time, with proper repetition that trains your mind, kinda like the old verbiage "Second Nature" will set in and you won't have to think about it.

The best example I can give; when driving from Portland to Salem, you know you passed the Woodburn area, but because of talking with folks in your car, on your cell phone, or being engrossed in your music you went past the exits yet didn’t notice. Does that mean you’re unsafe? Possibly … but more likely it means you’ve done enough driving repetitions so that your gray matter can rely on its training, and every time you drive you further ingrain that training.

Another example; How many of you drive a stick shift? For those of you that have for years, get into an auto-trans rig and see what happens. You grab for the stick shift that’s not there, and your foot goes for the ghost clutch pedal … am I right? All those years of driving a stick shift have effectively trained your mind to do one thing a certain way to the point where you don’t have to think about it anymore.

The same thing happens with firearms. Every shot fired, every manipulation etc., is another repetition to further ingrain the training for your mind, and hone your skills.

Again, fight the urge to go out with friends and blast away. Every proper trigger press is another proper repetition for your training. Proper consistency is the key to any training regimen. Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

 

[wichaka]

OK, I get it. This is good stuff.

All my guns have night sights on the front sight only, the rear is left solid black. I don't want anything that will attract my eye to anything other than the threat.

I think night sights, for the most part are over rated. Unless you're making a sniper type shot on someone, you won't have time to obtain the perfect 3-dot sight alignment and picture.

I have worked the night shift for years, and can't remember when there wasn't some kind of ambient light around.

I paint the the area around the glow tube with a bright color paint. This helps pick up the front sight when there's too much light for the glow tube to be seen, yet too dark to find a black sight.

But as always, its a personal choice...your mileage may vary.

 

[Wheeler44]

The muscle memory thing really hit home this weekend...A fellow let me shoot his new 1911...I was shooting at his target that was well ventilated....I wanted to put my shots high and left, into a clean part of the target..... The first shot hit well. I pushed the second about three inches and followed up with three quick into the orange (bullseye area)....My muscle memory took over on the three last rapid fire shots....I wanted to shoot a group (ish) but my body wanted to hit the bull....Crazy huh.......

 

[wichaka]

Where the eyes go, your shots will follow.

 

[Gunner3456]

This great stuff guys. Please keep it up. I've been out in the woods a couple of times already with the Ruger Standard just trying these things. I can certainly improve a lot, but I'm already better than I expected. I'm just picking random targets such as a leaf or stick of wood on the ground and keeping it in focus, pointing and firing. I would certainly hit center of mass with most shots even this soon.

Thanks.

 

[BoomHeadShot]

Everytime you put a threat in the ground, it's one less that your wife has to worry about going to her car after work. With that said, it never hurts to train the ones you care about as well.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Wow. On that forcescience.org site, I read this: <broken link removed> and was amazed at how little I know. Time to do some more practicing. It obviously isn't enough to just know how to shoot a gun.

I wonder how many officers have wrongfully gone to jail because of legitimate inabilities (human limitations) to see everything or to recall everything after a shooting, and therefore gave inaccurate testimony which didn't align with the forensics. I wonder how many have died because they didn't start reacting soon enough, or know where to focus their eyes?

Interesting training and results.. moving to the side a bit as you shoot may be enough to throw off the shooter, as few of them have training shooting a moving target. Training a good crab step while shooting effectively would be helpful on even terrain like a sidewalk or inside a building. This may help obtain cover as well

The awareness factor is essential. Beat them to the punch. This is the essence of the hand to hand training I have received and teach (JKD, the "Way of the Intercepting Hand and Foot") I've been there even before I took JKD and intercepted attack with a drawn handgun before it could escalate to a drawn weapon or successful mass unarmed attack (just assuming there, any weapon could have been produced if they were successful)

Excellent thread, lots to think about

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Where the eyes go, your shots will follow.

That's elemental predator logic.. from a stone tipped spear or arrow to a 1 mile sniper shot it remains true

However in these scenarios it's best not to get tunnel vision.. there's the rub.. to concentrate much of your vision on the target, ensure solid hits without totally losing your peripheral vision towards other potential threats. It's very hard to do unless you are relaxed and in tune with your environment (noting all possible threats) and totally at one with your weapon(s) via training. We call it "sensitivity" in JKD.. sensitive to all movements and "energy" going on around us. Unless you're a natural you really have to train quite a bit to get up to speed on this. Even if you are a natural you can get a lot better with training

Don't mean to sound mystical, it's real world stuff

 

[Blitzkrieg]

All my guns have night sights on the front sight only, the rear is left solid black. I don't want anything that will attract my eye to anything other than the threat.

I think night sights, for the most part are over rated. Unless you're making a sniper type shot on someone, you won't have time to obtain the perfect 3-dot sight alignment and picture.

I have worked the night shift for years, and can't remember when there wasn't some kind of ambient light around.

I paint the the area around the glow tube with a bright color paint. This helps pick up the front sight when there's too much light for the glow tube to be seen, yet too dark to find a black sight.

But as always, its a personal choice...your mileage may vary.

We have been slowly moving towards the differential night sights on all our pistols.. green front. amber rear. It's a lot easier up close to quickly pick up the green sight that we have always used.. but for longer shots the amber rear sights give you a better chance of hits. That's the way I look at it, anyway (no pun intended)

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Yep, now we're on the same page. As I stated above...when first starting to shoot, you'll find once the sights are on target, they'll stay there unless you consciously pull them off or fall down. So its kinda like, set 'em, then forget 'em. The body has a natural pointing ability, if you allow it to happen. Over ride it, and you're in for a loooooong day.

Over time, with proper repetition that trains your mind, kinda like the old verbiage "Second Nature" will set in and you won't have to think about it.

The best example I can give; when driving from Portland to Salem, you know you passed the Woodburn area, but because of talking with folks in your car, on your cell phone, or being engrossed in your music you went past the exits yet didn't notice. Does that mean you're unsafe? Possibly ... but more likely it means you've done enough driving repetitions so that your gray matter can rely on its training, and every time you drive you further ingrain that training.

Another example; How many of you drive a stick shift? For those of you that have for years, get into an auto-trans rig and see what happens. You grab for the stick shift that's not there, and your foot goes for the ghost clutch pedal ... am I right? All those years of driving a stick shift have effectively trained your mind to do one thing a certain way to the point where you don't have to think about it anymore.

The same thing happens with firearms. Every shot fired, every manipulation etc., is another repetition to further ingrain the training for your mind, and hone your skills.

Again, fight the urge to go out with friends and blast away. Every proper trigger press is another proper repetition for your training. Proper consistency is the key to any training regimen. Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

People would ask Bruce Lee: "Can you really teach me this stuff? It looks so difficult and intricate, how can I remember all this?

Bruce would pull out his wallet and toss it to them. They would of course catch it. He would say: How hard was that, and did you have to remember anything or think, or did you just do it ?

It takes practice and dedication to get there, but once you are there it's as natural as catching the wallet

 

[Blitzkrieg]

It's funny, there almost isn't enough time in a day to do all the gun training really needed. I could see every morning working on drawing and shooting from inside personal space, to 100 yards...then working on shooting from cars, on my back, sideways, through windows, in trees...now let's work on the weak hand...that could be a full time job...

Then we start working on assault rifles, shotguns, long distance stuff..
Disarms, simunition, scenarios..plus all the cardio, weights...knife training..sticks...

Car training...rappeling, entry work...non lethal would be fun..escape and evasion...lock picking...languages, planes, helos, boats....

We need a cool school for all this stuff...ESI is about as close as I have seen...

Pick 3 or 4 of the most likely scenarios/techniques and master them. Then pick another and master it. Pretty soon mastering the unknown will be a lot easier/more probable

 

[Kevatc]

Where the eyes go, your shots will follow.

Specific question then a comment/question .... What distance does the quote hold true in terms of accuracy? I might be able to fulfill some degree of accuracy at 25 feet but could or should I expect the same at 25 yards?

I was actually trying this a few weekends ago ... draw like I always do and just get on target without the usual good sight alignment/sight picture thing. I did OK at about 6-8 yards. Felt like my groups were minute of dump truck though. All would've been effective but not the "between the nipples" that I have thought is what I should do. Perhaps my expectations are to high especially for what could be expected in a realistic situation????

 

[wichaka]

Most people I find can point shoot out to 10+ yards and be very accurate with it. The problem comes from using different types of handguns with different grip angles etc.

From what I've been seeing in people, it doesn't take much practice to get a handle on it. Most people aren't used to shooting that way, or from close to the body in a CQB situation.

 

[Redrum]

7 yards and in is the average pistol gun fight..if your point shooting consistantly where you want at 10+ yards then your doin ok