Has anyone seen Federal HST for sale?

[bnr32gtr]

Yes, Cheaper Than Dirt is gouging people left and right.

My dad and I now refer to Cheaper Than Dirt either as: "Gouge Away" and "Bend over an take it in the a**". They have lost my business forever due to their pricing and stupid ammo restrictions.

 

[pdxjazz]

I've been looking at Pow'rball and Corbon DPX lately. They're ~$1.00 per bullet.
Exhorbitant, but then I wouldn't be using them for plinking anyway.

I looked at the HST, and then after allot of research I decided on the Cor-Bon DPX. I just talked with the technical people at Barnes (manufactures the bullet component), and they just completed some comparative testing that will released in the next couple weeks. They are going after the military/LE markets and wanted to show how well their product competed. Apparently they did quite well. However, I had already decided this was the one that I wanted.

 

[Doc In UPlace]

From the data, the DPX is probably going to take care o'bidnuss just fine. If I see any more HST show up at ATG I'll post here.

I check them about every day anyhow.

 

[pdxjazz]

I left a message a while back with Federal with a question on their version of the Cor-Bon DPX (Federal refers to it as the Barnes Expander), and finally had a chance to talk with one of their technical guys. I asked him about the HST, and he said they would like to sell more to the public, but currently channel their production for the LE people. He said eventually as production capacity catches up with demand you should see more of it available to the public.

He also mentioned they are considering bringing back the Nyclad in a .38 Special for the snub nose carry guns.

BTW, the question I asked was if the Barnes Expander would open up and penetrate well using short barrels. He said much to Federals surprise, it did, as Federal only markets this as a "hunting" round. Interesting as Cor-Bon markets the bullet for top level self defense, while Federal chooses the hunter crowd.

 

[KKG]

I know I'm a bit late on Posting a reply here but I'll do so anyway. Just call it an Up-Date:

As of today(actually done several years ago), Federal has Classified the HST, in ALL calibers, as LE ONLY. I talk to three of my regular suppliers and was told that any orders would have to include a Department Letter stating the ammo was being purchased for Department use. I also talked to the Federal Rep and got the same story. He suggested you might want to consider the TAP brand ammo as it has proven to have many of the same qualities as the HST.

Lots of people don't understand that many - especially the smaller Agencies - don't have an FFL and must purchase through a Dealer just like JQ Public. The Federal licenses aren't cheap(to begin with but do get better when renewed) and they must be assigned to a particular individual. That's the tricky part. Because many LEOs go to work for a Small City or County just to get their "Foot in the Door" or maybe to get their "Feet Wet"(I had a job like that once; out near Forks WA) and then they move on for better money or whatever. And, of course, here in WA the State they also get their ANNUAL $125.00 worth of "Blood Money" and that ain't CHEAP any way you look at it! I keep my FFL because it allows me to send handguns through the USPS which means my shipping costs are about 1/4 of using FedEx or UPS.

And, for those who don't know it you can get an FFL without the old "Store Front REQUIRED" bit. When Homeland Security took them over, after 9/11, the Rules got looked at and many were changed. One was the Store Front Rule another was the renewal Cost was brought back in line with where it had been.

 

[deadshot2]

I know I'm a bit late on Posting a reply here but I'll do so anyway. Just call it an Up-Date:

As of today(actually done several years ago), Federal has Classified the HST, in ALL calibers, as LE ONLY. I talk to three of my regular suppliers and was told that any orders would have to include a Department Letter stating the ammo was being purchased for Department use. I also talked to the Federal Rep and got the same story. He suggested you might want to consider the TAP brand ammo as it has proven to have many of the same qualities as the HST.

Lots of people don't understand that many - especially the smaller Agencies - don't have an FFL and must purchase through a Dealer just like JQ Public. The Federal licenses aren't cheap(to begin with but do get better when renewed) and they must be assigned to a particular individual. That's the tricky part. Because many LEOs go to work for a Small City or County just to get their "Foot in the Door" or maybe to get their "Feet Wet"(I had a job like that once; out near Forks WA) and then they move on for better money or whatever. And, of course, here in WA the State they also get their ANNUAL $125.00 worth of "Blood Money" and that ain't CHEAP any way you look at it! I keep my FFL because it allows me to send handguns through the USPS which means my shipping costs are about 1/4 of using FedEx or UPS.

And, for those who don't know it you can get an FFL without the old "Store Front REQUIRED" bit. When Homeland Security took them over, after 9/11, the Rules got looked at and many were changed. One was the Store Front Rule another was the renewal Cost was brought back in line with where it had been.

Bear in mind that much of the "LE ONLY" ammo is not really all that special, it merely has not had the 15% exicise tax assessed on it at the factory. Selling this ammo through multiple channels (LE, Civilian) creates issues with having to collect the tax on some and not on other sales. Thus the "Black Box/Red Box for Hornady TAP yet both have identical specs.

As for one being more deadly than the other, most manufacturers like Hornady use similar projectiles in both. A-max bullets find their way into the LE ammo as well as FMJ or even BTHP "Match" bullets for "barrier rounds".

Some dilligent "shopping" will show where one can get "same performing" ammo without having to "bootleg" the LE Only ammo.

FWIW, I handload .308 ammo that has exactly the same specs as Hornady TAP ammo for LE, right down to the Hornady Match cases, A-Max bullets, and I suspect powder as well. Even if not the same powder, the speed clocks the same as published. For some reason though, my handloads shoot far smaller groups than the Factory LE ammo when comparing at the same range, with same conditions. Go figure.

 

[KKG]

deadshot2; Yes, most of what you say is totally correct and also many of the components are available to the Reloader with the Powder being one of the most common exceptions. But, most Agencies simply don't have the Funds to hire someone to do their reloading for them. Especially, in these days of most Agencies using Automatics; which, in general, do not function(properly) with anything less that Full Power or Heavier Loads. Back in the days of the Revolver(and the .357 Magnum or .38 Special being the most common) being the gun of choice for most LEOs, many Departments were able to produce .38 Special Target Loads at a price using the Slave Labor of willing Officers. Today, most of the Agencies that I have had contact with are "Required" by their Insurance Carrier(and their Attorneys) to use Factory Ammo even for Practice. That is what keeps people like Federal "Alive & Well" - Full Power Practice Ammo.

As for your .308 reloads being better shooters than the Factory; well, I wouldn't expect anything less if you are doing everything you should be. But, you also have to understand that people like Federal are turning out something that will fit any "Duty Type" rifle and THAT is their Job. The fact that many of the Factory loadings will shoot under MOA in just about any "Out of the Box" Match aka:Tactical Rifle; then I think they are doing their job very well. And at a price that we can all afford if we chose to do so. I can hear you saying that your Reloads only cost half or one-third of the cost of Factory ammo but I'm betting you are simply counting the price of the "Parts" and NOT including the amount of time you have actually put into the loading. Nor are you counting the time it takes to purchase all those "Parts" and the cost of your Reloading Set-up. Are you???

 

[oasis618]

I can't look at the link here from work but Kyle's Gunshop, Inc. usually has it. I've purchased quite a bit from them.

 

[oasis618]

Wow, I just got suckered into a real zombie thread. So dead but so alive...

 

[deadshot2]

deadshot2; Yes, most of what you say is totally correct and also many of the components are available to the Reloader with the Powder being one of the most common exceptions. But, most Agencies simply don't have the Funds to hire someone to do their reloading for them. Especially, in these days of most Agencies using Automatics; which, in general, do not function(properly) with anything less that Full Power or Heavier Loads. Back in the days of the Revolver(and the .357 Magnum or .38 Special being the most common) being the gun of choice for most LEOs, many Departments were able to produce .38 Special Target Loads at a price using the Slave Labor of willing Officers. Today, most of the Agencies that I have had contact with are "Required" by their Insurance Carrier(and their Attorneys) to use Factory Ammo even for Practice. That is what keeps people like Federal "Alive & Well" - Full Power Practice Ammo.

As for your .308 reloads being better shooters than the Factory; well, I wouldn't expect anything less if you are doing everything you should be. But, you also have to understand that people like Federal are turning out something that will fit any "Duty Type" rifle and THAT is their Job. The fact that many of the Factory loadings will shoot under MOA in just about any "Out of the Box" Match aka:Tactical Rifle; then I think they are doing their job very well. And at a price that we can all afford if we chose to do so. I can hear you saying that your Reloads only cost half or one-third of the cost of Factory ammo but I'm betting you are simply counting the price of the "Parts" and NOT including the amount of time you have actually put into the loading. Nor are you counting the time it takes to purchase all those "Parts" and the cost of your Reloading Set-up. Are you???

Actually, if I were ONLY counting the component costs my rounds would be about 1/4 that of the shelf price for most "Tactical" ammo. As for equipment costs, I've loaded over 100k rounds on my equipment so the amortized cost of the equipment works out to about $.02/round so far. It keeps getting lower as I load more.

Time? Yes, it has a value. My response wasn't so much to take a whack at what PD's pay for ammo but to point that an individual, who was denied access to LE Only ammo, could hand load an equal, if not better performing round using the same components.

 

[KKG]

deadshot2;

"My response wasn't so much to take a whack at what PD's pay for ammo but to point that an individual, who was denied access to LE Only ammo, could hand load an equal, if not better performing round using the same components."

I don't want to start a Rhubarb over this but, since the prices of Components has gone up pretty much just as fast as has the ammo; then you have either found one incredibly "inexpensive" source or you are talking about using up old stock that you were smart enough to lay in before the prices began to rise.

 

[deadshot2]

deadshot2;

"My response wasn't so much to take a whack at what PD's pay for ammo but to point that an individual, who was denied access to LE Only ammo, could hand load an equal, if not better performing round using the same components."

I don't want to start a Rhubarb over this but, since the prices of Components has gone up pretty much just as fast as has the ammo; then you have either found one incredibly "inexpensive" source or you are talking about using up old stock that you were smart enough to lay in before the prices began to rise.

Actually, I just received another shipment a couple weeks ago. It included 1,000 168 gr. Hornady A-Max bullets. Boxes of 250 were $62.55 or $0.25 each. As for cases, I was fortunate to pick up several hundred that were left behind by a Police unit that was qualifying at our range.

I tend to keep my loading costs down by only purchasing in quantity. Rather than a monthly run to the store for a pound of this and a box of that, I buy for a whole year, usually from Powder Valley. My local UPS guy gives me a funny look when I get a shipment weighing 60#+ with a huge hazmat sticker on it. They ship bullets in flat rate boxes so the Mail Person tends to gripe a little when delivering a couple of boxes weighing just under 50# each.

I find that bulk buying like this not only saves me money on components but saves money on the gas necessary to make those monthly "pilgrimages" I used to make. The larger the shipment the lower the unit cost for shipping and likewise hazmat fee on primers and powder.

 

[Grommit327]

HST bullets and TAP bullets are not the same thing. HST opens up a lot more and also has better ballistics after going through windshields. TAP ammos just uses an XTP bullet from what I understand which is not that impressive of expansion.

 

[KKG]

Whatever you say. The TAP bullets do seem to perform very well and I don't have to pay the extra price or reload to get some shooting in.