Poll: Greatest Firearm of John Moses Browning

[HuckleberryFun]

Asking me to choose is like asking me which body part I like the most...

Not the best analogy. We all know which part...

 

[U8395279]

The thread posted up about the Hi-Power got me to thinking......"What was John Browning's greatest Firearm achievement?"

My vote would be the M1911 followed by the 1894.

E

No, Browning himself considered his Auto 5 shotgun to be his greatest achievement. In 1905, an autoloading shotgun was completely unheard of, and considered to be quite revolutionary. He was extremely proud of the gun. More so, than any other gun that he created.

This is a very well documented fact, which actually led to the end of his relationship with Winchester Repeating Arms.




Actor Clark Gable bought his wife, actress Carole Lombard, a Browning 12 gauge Auto 5, which he had fitted with a Cutts compensator, to further reduce recoil for her.

Here is a photo of them hunting pheasants together in South Dakota:


And here is a photo of Carole getting ready to go duck hunting, with her Browning Auto 5 laying beside her:

 

[U8395279]

My vote went to the 1911....Defender of Home , Self and Country... Winner of many a pistol match and a pistol that I know I can depend on.
That said , I wonder just how much game has fallen to a hunter with a 1894 rifle or a Model 12 shotgun ?
Andy

John Moses Browning and the management at Winchester Repeating Arms had a huge falling out in 1903, over Browning's new Auto 5 shotgun. The dispute between them became very bitter, and Browning severed his relationship with Winchester over the matter, and never designed another gun for them after that.

The Winchester Model 12 shotgun was designed 9 years later in 1912 by an engineer employed by Winchester Repeating Arms by the name of T C Johnson.

Winchester had refused to agree to start giving Browning royalty payments for the guns that he designed. They had only paid him flat fees of several thousand dollars, for each of the patents that he had sold to them. Browning felt that Winchester was treating him unfairly, due to the tremendous commercial success that so many of the Winchester guns that he had designed had.

After ending his partnership with Winchester; Colt, Fabrique Nationale in Belgium, and Remington all agreed to give Browning royalties for guns that he designed for them.

For example, Colt paid John Browning 25 cents for every 1911 pistol that they produced, during the life of his patent for the handgun.

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[Bon Sauvage]

I would not presume to quarrel with the well presented arguments that the other posters on this thread have made.

Still, I have a lot of respect for the 1885.

 

[nehalemguy]

John Moses Browning and the management at Winchester Repeating Arms had a huge falling out in 1903, over Browning's new Auto 5 shotgun. The dispute between them became very bitter, and Browning severed his relationship with Winchester over the matter, and never designed another gun for them after that.

The Winchester Model 12 shotgun was designed 9 years later in 1912 by an engineer employed by Winchester Repeating Arms by the name of T C Johnson.

Winchester had refused to agree to start giving Browning royalty payments for the guns that he designed. They had only paid him flat fees of several thousand dollars, for each of the patents that he had sold to them. Browning felt that Winchester was treating him unfairly, due to the tremendous commercial success that so many of the Winchester guns that he had designed had.

After ending his partnership with Winchester; Colt, Fabrique Nationale in Belgium, and Remington all agreed to give Browning royalties for guns that he designed for them.

For example, Colt paid John Browning 25 cents for every 1911 pistol that they produced, during the life of his patent for the handgun.

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Thank you for the history lesson and correction of the various models made or designed by J. Browning....

I never said that John Browning invented /designed the Model 12... But I did ask / wonder just how much game has fallen to a hunter armed with a Model 12.
I mentioned the Model 12 because it was on the poll and is to this day a popular shotgun where I live and hunt.
Andy

I have the Model 12 listed as a poll choice, and while its true that Johnson is credited with the "design" of the Model 12, he relied heavily on Browning's previous work with the 1897 and 1893 shotguns.

Both get credit for the Model 12 in my opinion.

E

 

[U8395279]

Thank you for the history lesson and correction of the various models made or designed by J. Browning....

I never said that John Browning invented /designed the Model 12... But I did ask / wonder just how much game has fallen to a hunter armed with a Model 12.
I mentioned the Model 12 because it was on the poll and is to this day a popular shotgun where I live and hunt.
Andy

Except the whole purpose of this poll was to ask for opinions regarding which firearm was Browning's greatest design. And you mentioned the Model 12 shotgun, right alongside the Model 94 rifle, when Browning had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the creation of that shotgun.

And the model 12 is hardly a popular shotgun any longer anywhere. i have never seen any still in use at any of the shotgun target ranges that I have shot at here in Oregon. Winchester discontinued production of that shotgun 53 years ago, way back in 1964. Shotgun barrels back then had fixed chokes. So in order to have a different choke, one actually had to purchase an additional barrel for the gun. Plus the barrels made back then are really not compatible with today's modern non-toxic shot, which limits using such shotguns today for hunting.

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[U8395279]

I have the Model 12 listed as a poll choice, and while its true that Johnson is credited with the "design" of the Model 12, he relied heavily on Browning's previous work with the 1897 and 1893 shotguns.

Both get credit for the Model 12 in my opinion.

E

Except that Browning played no role at all in the creation of the Model 12. And the fact is that T C Johnson actually made modifications in the Model 12 to specifically get around Browning's patent for the Model 97. That was because Winchester did not want Browning coming after them with a lawsuit over the Model 12.

You do not seem to realize just how severe and hostile the breakup between John Browning and Winchester management was. Winchester management actually criticized the Browning brothers, and belittled their contribution to the company's success, in a letter that they sent to their sales and marketing people.

Just take a look at this letter below from Winchester management, and how they portrayed the Browning brothers as being arrogant and pompous, and even gave engineer William Mason credit for designing the 1886 rifle, minimizing Browning's contribution to the gun.


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[Mark W.]

You left the model 1895 the best lever action ever off the list.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I'd love to have a 1895 carbine in .30-40 Krag ... but alas what I want and what my budget allows for are often two vastly different things...
Andy

 

[Ura-Ki]

Also forgot the Remington Mod 8 from the list, the FIRST successful self loading Rifle ever made, and a damn fine rifle it is!

 

[Tully Mars]

I would say the 1895 and the Auto 5. While I don't own a '95 it would be nice. I LOVE the auto 5's and have several. I used to catch a lot flak over my shotgun choice, but it's a natural for me. It comes up quick, swings and points better than any other scattergun for me except maybe the Red Label. I collect Belgium Brownings and I'm proud to say that I have at least one A5 in every gauge it was offered in.
As far as pistols go I give the nod to the HP over the 1911 by just a nose

 

[Ura-Ki]

My beautiful Mod 8 "converted" to .308 Winchester.

 

[Tully Mars]

Sorry folks, but the High Power doesn't belong on the list!!! JM Browning didn't actually design it, and he passed away before the designs had even been completed and tested! It was his idea as an improvement of the 1911 that he felt would make a better pistol then his earlier design for which he was never quite satisfied with, especially after the Army requested significant changes to his pure design!

BLASPHEMY!!!
Continued such actions may well result in your excommunication from the First Reformed Church of Our Holy Saint John the Designer

Tully Mars,
1st Deacon

 

[Boboclown]

I voted 1911 just because of its success.

But also, I'd really like to have a BAR one day as well.

 

[Ura-Ki]

BLASPHEMY!!!
Continued such actions may well result in your excommunication from the First Reformed Church of Our Holy Saint John the Designer

Tully Mars,
1st Deacon

WOW, and this from a feller who picked the HP OVER the greatest pistol ever designed by God his self, and his chosen servant to build it
I am shocked!


J/K
I know you jest!

 

[Tully Mars]

 

[nehalemguy]

Except that Browning played no role at all in the creation of the Model 12. And the fact is that T C Johnson actually made modifications in the Model 12 to specifically get around Browning's patent for the Model 97. That was because Winchester did not want Browning coming after them with a lawsuit over the Model 12.

Why would Winchester have to worry about patent infringement of the Model 1897 when they had already purchased it from Browning?

I know that patent infringement was an issue for Johnson with his attempt at an auto loading shotgun. The Winchester Model 1911 auto loading shotgun that Johnson did design, nicknamed "the Widowmaker", took ten years for him to design and only lasted 14 years in production.

Winchester also purchased another design from Browning in 1896 for a hammerless pump action shot gun that Winchester did not put into production.

Historical Firearms - Unproduced: 1896 Browning Shotgun The patent for...




Browning Arms Company produced a limited run of Model 12's in the late 1980s which I think was a nod to John Moses.

E

 

[MountainBear]

No gunsmith I know enjoys working on any of the shotguns that JMB designed. Do they work? Well, yes, when they work. Its when they need to be worked on, open them up and it is a Rube Goldberg pile of parts interacting in what should be a harmonious ballet but can turn into an absolute nightmare.

No, the 1911 gets my vote, only because I have little experience with his military machine guns.

 

[Ownerus]

Having worked in manufacturing for over 40 years, much of it in new product design and a fair share in my own small business plus the opportunity to disassemble and examine a number of his designs, I have a special appreciation for JMB. To have created so many new and different fundamental designs in a single lifetime is truly awe inspiring. To have done much of it in the era before electricity and modern metallurgy even more so. I suspect he didn't just run down to his local supplier and pick up a bar of quality alloy steel whenever he needed it. Likewise cutters and heat treating. He could fire up the lathe or mill after firing up the boiler for the steam engine. I've read he used cardboard cut outs for modeling his designs but I wouldn't be surprised if he was a reasonably accomplished draftsman. Designing on the board has been around a long time. It's only been about the last thirty years or so that computer aided design/drafting has replaced it. Likewise CNC machine tools. I have some machinery of a vintage that JMB might have used. They are capable of quite good work though even those are now fitted with electric motors. No dealing with line shafts and yard engines.

On the other hand, he had some distinct advantages that would be gun designers (or manufacturers of any sort) today do not. Namely FREEDOM. Unlike us, he lived in a Free Country. He didn't have to contend with a rapacious government extracting 50% or more of his financial resources every year. He wouldn't have had to purchase (and renew) multiple licenses simply to be allowed to do his work. He wouldn't have needed to worry that he was violating some obscure law or regulation that would land him in prison. He wouldn't be fined for failing to tie up his step ladder or for using a non government approved air nozzle. He wouldn't have had to pay multiple maintenance fees to maintain his patents. He didn't have to contend with a government that has outdone King George when it comes to erecting a "multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance". When looking at the invention and productivity of JMB's era, it strikes me that all our new technology is scarcely up to the task of offsetting the crippling burden of "government".

All that said, it's a tough call but I'd have to vote for the 1911 pistol as the most influential design. My favorite design, in addition to the 1911, is the Pocket Hammerless, the Model 1894, 1895 and model 8 rifle, the '97 pump shotgun, and the elegant little .22 Auto rifle. Guess I can't really pick just one

 

[No_Regerts]

The M2 has made the greatest impact of any Browning design, in more ways than one. Still in service and still an amazing weapon.