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FYI-selling black powder firearms

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by GED, May 12, 2012.

  1. GED

    GED North Idaho Active Member

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    FYI-I've noticed over the years on this site that people selling their black powder firearms-usually replicas-will specify the state where they live(i.e. WTS OR, WTS WA, etc.)because they think they can't sell these firearms to out-of-state residents in compliance with Federal firearm laws(there is a black powder firearm for sale right now on this forum which is under "WTS WA").

    When I put up my 1853 Enfield replica for sale on this forum I specified it was for sale to both Oregon and Washington residents(but would have sold to anyone within the lower 48 states).

    Because by Federal law, black powder weapons-originals and replicas-need not go through a FFL when sold by a private party or a business.

    For example, when I bought my 1853 Enfield replica from Cabelas-they shipped it directly to me. Likewise, when a local auctioneer which I frequent sells antique black powder weapons this auctioneer will state in the catalog that a black power rifle or pistol does not need to go through an FFL.

    Another example-thousands of Civil War re-enactors have bought black powder pistols, rifles, etc. from dealers and have had them shipped directly to their homes without going through a FFL(check out any Civil War supply web site that sells Civil War era replica firearms and you'll notice that it says nothing about needing to go through an FFL. BTW-all these replicas are fully functional weapons). These dealers, by and large, are not FFLs.

    Finally, once I was in the market for a Civil War era rifle and contacted a seller here on this forum who lived in Washington and had a replica for sale.

    He also thought that it was against the law to sell to an Oregon resident(me). I did the research and quoted him chapter and verse-and cited the pertinent web sites-of both the Washington State and Federal laws concerning the sale of black powder weapons. He then changed his For Sale listing to both OR and WA.

    So, anyone out there who wants to sell a black powder rifle or pistol:you don't need to confine the sale only to residents of your state(unless you are doing so for convenience sake, etc.).
     
  2. Chee-to

    Chee-to Oregon Well-Known Member

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    As per Fed law, no FFL needed. Individual state laws may vary, for instance, If shipping black powder to WA state, it has to go through an FFL, I believe same with NY, NJ, Il, and MI.
     
  3. GED

    GED North Idaho Active Member

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  4. Chee-to

    Chee-to Oregon Well-Known Member

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    You know I could be wrong. I was going by which states black powder dealers won't ship to, with out FFL..
    Here's NORTH AMERICAN ARMS policy;

    Note: We are unable to ship black powder handguns to the following states and municipalities: New Jersey, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New York, Washington state, Michigan, Annapolis or Baltimore, MD, Montgomery County, MD, Washington, D.C., Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Chicago, IL, Cook Cty., IL, Evanston or Cicero IL, Delaware, San Francisco, Santa Ana, Berkeley, Tiburon, Carson, Los Angeles, Sacramento, Oakland, CA, nor Orange, Marin, Loyo, Contra Costa, Ventura, Napa counties in CA. Illinois buyers must have FOID card.
     
  5. BEN LILLY

    BEN LILLY Lincoln City, OR NRA LIFE MEMBER Bronze Supporter

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    After the Supreme Court ruld that a lot of local firearm laws are/were unconstutional. One would need to check local laws. They are changing day to day.
     
  6. EMP9596

    EMP9596 Two Trees West of Camas, WA. Active Member

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    Chee-to is correct... Different states have different restrictions depending on the type of black powder firearm ie: replica pistol rifle, modern rifle. There used to be several states on the east coast that "had or still have" restrictions on B-P pistols. You need to check by state I am sure.
     
  7. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    GED,I would guess that the seller you referred to was letting some know where he lived?
    You know,in stead of 'Northwest'?
     
  8. hermannr

    hermannr Okanogan Highlands Well-Known Member

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    I don't know where you think your information comes from, but if you don't cite, it is not true.

    Look at RCW 9.41.010(1)...WA specifically defines an "Antique Firearm" now, you cite where WA states you must transfer an "Antique Firearm" as defined in RCW 9.41.010 through and FFL? Ok? OH can't do that? My My...you know why? There is no such requirement. There is no Federal requirement either.
     
  9. hermannr

    hermannr Okanogan Highlands Well-Known Member

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    I'll tell you where this "policy" restriction came from. RCW 9.41.150...does not exist anymore It was repealed in 1994! and these people just cannot keep up to date on their laws. BTW: Even before 1994 it only applied to non US citizens.
     
  10. EMP9596

    EMP9596 Two Trees West of Camas, WA. Active Member

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    On an off note. If you take a look at differant firearms suppliers sales restrictions like Century Arms in Florida. In their Terms and conditions:
    Washington State customers: No sales of ammuniton to C&R licensees. No consumer direct sales and No sales of machine gun parts or parts kits.(DUH!)

    Now SAMCO is also in Florida leaves it up to all ammo buyer to fill out a form which states as follows.

    ORDERS FOR RIFLE and PISTOL AMMUNITION
    #1 - STATE ISSUED ID/DRIVER’S LICENSE & #2 - SIGNED STATEMENT
    "I CERTIFY THAT I AM 21 YEARS OF AGE, A UNITED STATES CITIZEN/OR PERMANENT
    RESIDENT AND HAVE RESIDED AT MY PRESENT ADDRESS FOR AT LEAST 90 DAYS. THERE
    ARE NO LOCAL, STATE OR FEDERAL LAWS THAT PROHIBIT MY PURCHASE OR POSSESSION
    OF AMMUNITION
    INCLUDING CONVICTION OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, HAVE NEVER
    BEEN CONVICTED IN ANY COURT OF A FELONY, HAVE NEVER BEEN ADJUCATED MENTALLY
    DEFECTIVE NOR BEEN COMMITTED TO A MENTAL INSTITUTION."
    DATE: __________________ _________________________________________
    (Signature

    So it looks to me like some firearm dealers/suppliers do not want to mess with sorting out state laws. Others seem to let the buyer take full responsibility for the purchase if it is inproper for a certain state?

    It very much looks like a buyer needs to research any firearms purchase. I am familiar with the C&R Regs but not with BP weapons.

    Maybe Potato guns could a be subject for another day. :huh:
     
  11. Redcap

    Redcap Lewis County, WA Well-Known Member

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    No, it doesn't.
     
  12. EMP9596

    EMP9596 Two Trees West of Camas, WA. Active Member

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    Dixie Gun Works muzzleloading, blackpowder and rare antique gun supplies.
    What restrictions apply to shipping muzzleloading firearms?
    Muzzleloaders, by virtue of the fact that they do not fire fixed ammunition, are considered antique firearms under The Gun Control Act of 1968 and are not restricted in trade by any federal law or regulation. This applies to both antique and new made muzzleloaders. There may be state or local ordinances which restrict our ability to ship direct to the customer. Residents of HI, NJ, MA and MI are urged to check their state and local laws for any restrictions on ordering black powder firearms. Dixie's black powder cartridge guns can only be shipped to a federally licensed dealer. In order to ship to the dealer, we must have a signed copy of the dealer's Federal Firearms License on file. If you are interested in ordering an FFL gun you should make arrangements with a local dealer to take delivery. This is a common practice and the dealer will usually charge only a nominal fee to complete the transfer.

    Wash State: (In short form)
    Black Powder pistols fall under the same category as modern handguns/firearms in Washington State. You must meet the same requirements to purchase and/or be in possession of one the same as if it were a Glock 9mm. A black powder firearm is regulated under Washington State Law and requires all state mandated transfer requirements (page 9 WA State DOL Firearms Dealer Training Manual) and under Washington State Law, if you are prohibited from owning or possessing a modern firearm, you are prohibited from owning a black powder firearm as well.
    This is a fairly recent change in Washington (within the last couple of years) and over 90% of the states, including California and even Washington, D.C. have no such requirements in order to purchase, own or possess a black powder firearm be it rifle or hand gun. Prior tothis change, you simply needed to provide i.d to prove you were of age (18), lay down the money and walk out the door.

    New York State Black Powder Pistol Laws:
    Black-powder pistols, such as ball and cap revolvers from the Civil War era, are popular firearms among collectors. While these weapons are old, they're still considered firearms. As such they fall under many modern laws in the state of New York that require permits or background checks to buy and own them.

    Shipping:
    In most parts of New York state it is perfectly acceptable to ship a black-powder pistol, as long as you're shipping it from a licensed gun dealer to another licensed gun dealer. It is illegal to ship any firearms, black- powder, caps or other firearm parts, accessories, or ammunition through the U.S. mail. In the state of New York, however, it is not acceptable to mail a black-powder pistol to New York City. There are no laws for shipping these weapons out of New York City to other destinations. They just can't be brought into the city that way.

    "Antique" Firearms:
    The regulations for modern firearms don't apply to "antique" firearms. These firearms are defined as any weapon for which ammunition is not manufactured through regular commercial channels. Civil War-era pistols, for instance, fall under this definition, even if they are still in perfect working condition. The same is true of replicas of these weapons made of modern components. As such, black-powder pistols fall under the legal definition of antique firearms, with the lack of regulation associated with that term.

    Red Tape:
    Generally a firearm must be purchased by someone with a valid license. The gun has to be registered to that person. There's also a waiting period and other red tape that New York state requires for pistol purchases. Even New York City, the most restrictive part of the state on gun-control laws, doesn't require these things for "antique" gun purchases. As such, a black-powder pistol can be purchased with no questions asked and no requirement of registration or a license to own it.
     
  13. GED

    GED North Idaho Active Member

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    Lively discussion here, guys.

    I've got egg on my face-Chee-to and EMP9596 are correct-I stand corrected.:(

    This from Cabelas web site:

    Attention:Residents of HI, ILL, MA, MI, NJ, NY,
    and WA please check your local laws for restrictions before ordering any
    black powder firearm.
     
  14. EMP9596

    EMP9596 Two Trees West of Camas, WA. Active Member

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    It's good!
    I have to call ATF tomorrow with a question on a "Maybe" it's a C&R tomorrow. Think I will pick their brain on this a little further while on the phone with them. I only own one BP firearm and it is a 1851 .44cal Navy Colt and this thread has got me to thinking just what is the straight skinny on BP stuff.
     
  15. hermannr

    hermannr Okanogan Highlands Well-Known Member

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    Sorry guys, you cannot find regs for BP (except big game F&W regs) because there ARE NONE! Used to be, pre 1994, and then only for aliens, but not since. BTW: In WA state, the local govs cannot regulate anything except discharge. Look in RCW 9.41.300...that is what local government can regulate.

    Just because some retail company is not willing to do the research to find that the law changed 18 years ago...is not your problem, just don't deal with them...Cabela's has been informed, and Dixie Gun works is just FLAT WRONG!!!!
     
  16. hermannr

    hermannr Okanogan Highlands Well-Known Member

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    Are you going to believe a retail establishment, or State LAW RCW 9.41...do your own research where it COUNTS!!!
     
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  17. Chee-to

    Chee-to Oregon Well-Known Member

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  18. EMP9596

    EMP9596 Two Trees West of Camas, WA. Active Member

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    That clears that up...
     
  19. Redcap

    Redcap Lewis County, WA Well-Known Member

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  20. hermannr

    hermannr Okanogan Highlands Well-Known Member

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    Read RCW 9.41.090(7) (7) This section does not apply to sales to licensed dealers for resale or to the sale of antique firearms

    Modified last iun 1996, before that 1994.

    Just so everyone knows what an ANTIQUE firearm is in WA: RCW 9.41.010(1)

    (1) "Antique firearm" means a firearm or replica of a firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
     
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