Further refinement of the Classified Section

[goneshooting]

Our main problems we need to curb are the non-supporting vendors with tons of classified use and the people who take up all the slots on the front page. Often these people are one in the same. The non-FFL's doing high single and double digit transactions on here create the possibility of a liability for this site. This is unacceptable, primarily because the classified section really has nothing to do with our mission statement.

solution is simple then

non supporting- 3 post a month in sale/trade classifieds total including btts may not bump to answer questions unless using 1 of their 3

supporting- as many as they want as long as only 2 ads on page one and no more than 4 on first 2 pages.

vender- unlimited and may bump to answer questions

but all abiding by 7 day rule

there you go cleans the board, gains supporters, brings in venders and is still free for those who can live with the restriction

 

[slingshot1943]

solution is simple then

non supporting- 3 post a month in sale/trade classifieds total including btts may not bump to answer questions unless using 1 of their 3

supporting- as many as they want as long as only 2 ads on page one and no more than 4 on first 2 pages.

vender- unlimited and may bump to answer questions

but all abiding by 7 day rule

there you go cleans the board, gains supporters, brings in venders and is still free for those who can live with the restriction

+1

 

[Joe Link]

That's close to what we're discussing now

 

[Outrider]

solution is simple then

non supporting- 3 post a month in sale/trade classifieds total including btts may not bump to answer questions unless using 1 of their 3

That will be draconian to members who are not paying members. I realize the response could be who cares, if they want a better deal they can pay. However, if you give someone a reason to leave, the person may leave. Further, even though the person may not be a paying member, the person may contribute to the forum's tone and knowledge.

Currently, this forum has a certain feel to it. If the nonpaying members had an incentive to go somewhere else and hang out, that would impact this forum. -AR15.com has an Oregon Hometown Forum where there was a mass banning. Many of those people ended up here and elsewhere. As a result, AR15.com's Oregon Hometown Forum is a ghost town now.

With the simple solution posed, it doesn't cover what happens if someone posts a question in a thread someone else is selling? Does that count as one of the three monthly posts in the classifieds section? What if a person is selling a rifle, ammo for that rifle, and extra mags for that rifle? That's three separate posts without the ability to bump any of them after a week to keep them current. The seller would have to wait month or get a friend to ask a shill question to keep them current.

The idea is to have a good classifieds section without allowing people abuse it. I believe requiring members to consolidate their listings, i.e. multiple rifles in one thread, multiple pistols in one thread, etc. is the better way to go at it. If we're worried about unlicensed dealers, we cap the number of active listings can be offered in a month, i.e. 4 firearms per month unless a licensed FFL and supporting vendor. However, we should take care. Often what may interpreted as an unlicensed dealer is just a flipper who acquires a firearm, puts a couple of hundred rounds through it, and then sells it (often at a small loss) or offers it for trade to fund or acquire something else...

 

[fijekladias]

With the simple solution posed, it doesn't cover what happens if someone posts a question in a thread someone else is selling? Does that count as one of the three monthly posts in the classifieds section? What if a person is selling a rifle, ammo for that rifle, and extra mags for that rifle? That's three separate posts without the ability to bump any of them after a week to keep them current. The seller would have to wait month or get a friend to ask a shill question to keep them current.

This is exactly the scenario I thought of. I currently am not a supporting member as I've only been a registered user for a couple weeks but have though about contributing as I am able. If a simple question on my part would impact my ability to peruse the classified sections that would be a major downer. I'm currently looking for rifles and to in essence only get three questions a month???
Hopefully I'm just misunderstanding what you are discussing...

 

[Joe Link]

Don't worry, that's not the exact thing we're discussing, just something that vaguely resembles that idea

 

[MountainBear]

I'm sorry, but I think that supporting members should have more privileges in the classified section. Since a rule to that extent would not harm a person's ability to contribute and learn from the rest of the forums, what should it matter? Pay twenty bucks a year and be able to use the classifieds easier. Don't want to pay? Then deal with the rules and contribute elsewhere in the other threads...

 

[Joe Link]

Supporting members & vendors will absolutely have more privileges both in the classified section and in other aspects of the site. The money they donate goes to benefit everyone by paying for the expenses of running the site. If they did not donate, the site would not exist. Therefore, their actions go to benefit every member on this site.

 

[Outrider]

I'm sorry, but I think that supporting members should have more privileges in the classified section. Since a rule to that extent would not harm a person's ability to contribute and learn from the rest of the forums, what should it matter? Pay twenty bucks a year and be able to use the classifieds easier. Don't want to pay? Then deal with the rules and contribute elsewhere in the other threads...

It's not a question of whether paying members should have more privileges. Obviously a person who is contributing financially should get a few perks. Almost every site I'm familiar with allows paying members to get bigger mailboxes and avatars. Some provide forum specific email addresses.

It's a question of how draconian you are in scaling back or limiting what non-paying members get to do in order to make paying members feel like they're getting something for their money. -Do you curtail their ability to list items? Do you curtail their ability to edit posts? Do you curtail their ability to IM or email through the site? Do you make certain parts/material of the website inaccessible for nonpaying members? How much can you degrade their experience and still keep them as active members?

It's a balancing act. As I have said before, if you get too regressive, it can turn people off to the forum in its entirety. I take it that is fine to MountainBear who thinks nonpaying members should simply make do. However, having watched formerly successful forums shoot themselves in the foot with excessive moderation or pairing down basic features for nonpaying members, I believe the lesson to be learned is not to become too limiting. It's a fine line type of thing that requires a scalpel not a cleaver.

A forum full of nonpaying lurkers and a small number of active paying members is not going to be the same place that this forum is right now.

 

[MountainBear]

So guys like Lorenzo who do very little on this sight but abuse the classifieds should just be allowed to run-amok? Sorry to go ahead and name names, but that's a fact. Lorenzo has over a dozen separate classified ads. The other day I bumped my ad to the front page. Within the hour, it was on the second page because he had bumped all thirteen of his ads. There's no problems with him using the classified ads, or anyone using them for that matter. But thirteen separate ads at one time is an abuse.

Look, I may not have the best ideas for cleaning up the classified sections. I admit that. But something needs to be done. We cannot allow the fear of alienating users to allow the classified section to screw up an excellent sight. Because you're right. The classified is a big deal to some users, myself included. I enjoy it a lot. Buying, selling, and trading guns is fun for me (I stay low enough to not need an FFL). But if it gets so bad that we lose others who also enjoy the classified section because they have become full of sharks who abuse the systems is also a bad thing.

All I can think of is to make those who want to use the classified ads to that level contribute. I use the classified sections a lot, and I am at least a basic contributor. If it keeps the sharks at bay, maybe its reasonable.

And I'm not talking about limiting the other sections. Just the classifieds. If people are lurking simply because they can't use the classifieds, then okay? What do you want to do about that...

 

[theduke]

So guys like Lorenzo who do very little on this sight but abuse the classifieds should just be allowed to run-amok? Sorry to go ahead and name names, but that's a fact. Lorenzo has over a dozen separate classified ads. The other day I bumped my ad to the front page. Within the hour, it was on the second page because he had bumped all thirteen of his ads. There's no problems with him using the classified ads, or anyone using them for that matter. But thirteen separate ads at one time is an abuse.

So theres one bad apple feeding five pages of disscussion. Why not just delete his adds and if he cares to wonder why he can research this thread. No one else gets too carried away with their adds. If you participate just a little its easy to understand how the members like the site to run. The fact that his adds remain is testament that apparently his motive is strictly to sell without reguards to fairplay . Delete that page of high priced crap and be done with this issue.

NO MORE RULES

 

[ZeroRing]

The thing is, it's not just one person who abuses the classified system. There are several people who are here strictly to use the classified section and, by any reasonable definition of the word, they are abusing the privilege. Couple this with the fact that 98%+ of their posts are within the classified section ONLY and you have to agree that they contribute nothing else to the site except ticking off other members who actually participate in the forums.

What we are trying to come up with is a way to limit the number of CREATED, active, ad threads a member can post without impacting or limiting a member's ability to post answers to questions, post in other member's ads, bump their ads after seven days, etc.

Part of what is being considered is just what that "limit" number will be (and yes, paying members will get an additional number of ads based on member level). We're getting close but keep those ideas coming.

Thanks for your patience!

 

[Outrider]

So guys like Lorenzo who do very little on this sight but abuse the classifieds should just be allowed to run-amok?

No. If you read one of my earlier posts (#24) in this thread, I mentioned that practice, without naming the guy, was a bit much because it completely dominated the first page of the rifle section and pushed everyone else down. It was unfair to other members, both paying and nonpaying. Conduct like that, in my opinion, is taking advantage in a negative way of the service and opportunity the forum provides.

But thirteen separate ads at one time is an abuse.

I agree. Providing a Classifieds section is not an invitation to set up shop and try to dominate the section. And it really wouldn't matter whether the person was a licensed FFL or not. I (and I suspect others) don't want to see Page 1 of the Classifieds dominated by any single user, paying or not. Imagine if Bud's Gun Shop was a supporting vendor here. Would you really want to see Page 1 of the Handgun Classifieds littered from top to bottom with 10 - 20 threads of pistols for sale in a row? It's a little obnoxious.

That's why I think, if you have multiple items to sell they should be consolidated by type into one thread in the appropriate section. If some guy had thirteen rifles he was selling and it was all listed in one thread, and he bumps the single thread once a week, it's no big deal. You may not even notice it. What you notice is a guy bumping thirteen threads at once so it blocks out other ads.

Look, I may not have the best ideas for cleaning up the classified sections. I admit that. But something needs to be done. We cannot allow the fear of alienating users to allow the classified section to screw up an excellent sight. Because you're right. The classified is a big deal to some users, myself included. I enjoy it a lot. Buying, selling, and trading guns is fun for me (I stay low enough to not need an FFL). But if it gets so bad that we lose others who also enjoy the classified section because they have become full of sharks who abuse the systems is also a bad thing.

Again, we agree. I check the classifieds because it's fun to see what crops up for sale. Sometimes the prices are good. Sometimes they're not. What's nice is the opportunity to find something I'm looking for or to be able to list something I no longer need. When the Classifieds get dominated by a person or a small group of people, it's not good for the section or the forum as a whole.

All I can think of is to make those who want to use the classified ads to that level contribute. I use the classified sections a lot, and I am at least a basic contributor. If it keeps the sharks at bay, maybe its reasonable.

I don't think it would keep the sharks at bay because if that would have been enough, AR15.com's rules for its Equipment Exchange would not have evolved the way they did. If someone simply had to pay $20 to list a lot of firearms, they would do it as the cost of doing business.

Figure that whatever system we set up is going to get abused. Some will do it knowingly and some will do it unwittingly. Take for example the "BTT / Bump to top" rule. Someone would open a shill account or have a friend ask a question, and BAM the ad is on the first page ahead of the others who are playing by the rules . Paying memberships don't address those kinds of things.

I don't think we have to reinvent the wheel and I don't think we have to reduce the ability of non-paying members to post ads in the Classifieds. There are enough models out there that we could cobble something together that would work here.

If you look at AR15.com's equipment exchange rules, it's to avoid other problems i.e. shill accounts, people backing out of deals, etc. One thing that I have seen on M4Carbine.net is that the only person who can post within a thread in the Classifieds is the person who initiated the thread. That way you can't get "Email sent," "Free Bump for a nice guy," "I wish I had the money," "Will you take my firstborn?" etc. -That change over there was to remove the opportunity for people to stomp on the ads of others and to avoid unfair Bumps to top.

If people are lurking simply because they can't use the classifieds, then okay? What do you want to do about that...

What I was trying to say was that depending what rules are put in place, you can inadvertently create a disincentive to people visiting and participating in the forum. In a way, forums are competing for members. If you build a forum and no one comes, that's bad. If you build a forum and no one stays, that's bad too. And if you build a forum where people feel they have to pay to participate in the important aspects of it, people may not stick around long enough to see the value in becoming a supporting member of the forum. -Lurkers can become active members, and ideally, a public forum wants active members not a bunch of lurkers. It starts by creating an atmosphere where they want to become involved. A drastic limitation to the Classifieds probably does not serve that goal. In contrast, a short list of rules allows people to still have access but requires they conform their conduct to a clear standard.

No welching.
No multiple threads in the same section of the Classifieds.
No excessive Bumping to top, defined as posting more than once a week in own thread.
No shill posting in the ads of friends to Bump to top.
No stomping on ads of others.
Requiring IM/PM to be turned on and to be able to accept email from other members.
All WTS ads must have a price listed.

-None of that is based on paying or nonpaying memberships and if enforced, it could help to make the Classifieds work better.

A perk of a paying membership could be allowing that person to bump his ad to top every 72 hours instead of once a week, allowing the person to post the title of his thread in a color other than black, being able to use a bold font for the thread title, being able to highlight the title, etc. There are things that could be done to enhance the Classifieds for paying members without degrading it or limiting it for nonpaying members.

 

[tionico]

so someone has 13 threads in a row, and now some want to limit it to TWO???? That's nuts. Sure, Mr. 13 COULD consolidate all his long guns into one ad..... like I've seen a few times on here. Maybe this is an excessive limitation, maybe not. The problem seems to be Mr. 13 bumping ALL his adverts at the same time, thus dominating the front page once per week (we ARE limited to one bump per week, right?)

How about imposing a limit of, say, three threads added PER DAY in the same page. that way, Mr. 13 would be come Mr. 3, make a little splash on the long guns page, but not own all the available real estate. Continue limiting the bumping to weekly.... thus, his 13 threads would become scattered through about four or five pages of threads.

I REALLY like the recent change of greying out the thread titles for sold guns. Somehow, though, not everyone does this, using the "close thread" tool, but instead merely edits, adding "sold" but not turning the title grey. It is easy to fly past all the grey titles when I am on the hunt for something to BUY...... if grey, its no longer for sale, why stop there?

I would like to see some instruction along the lines of ending the "free bump". "btt". that sort of thing. Hey, helping out a bud is fine, but stop and think.... it makes for extra obnoxious traffic when done to excess, as it often is. Continuing to post new comments, questions, suggestions, etc, in a given thread does ad a lot..... so that could continue.

I think placing too strong a limit on the total number of adverts one can have active, or on a certain page, is too harsh. Thirteen, yes, too much, particularly when all are bumped at the same time. Its sort of like a school of fish coming round every few days... nothing else happens until it passes. Require classified users to spread things out... like I suggested, perhaps three new listings per day.

Another thing, I've seen terse reminders from the mods when someone bumps their own advert too soon.... and I like seeing these. It helps keep folks considerate of other users. If a daily new posts limit is placed, similar warnings should be sent by the mods, as well.... to the point that, if the poster continues to refuse the rules, they can be banished to Outer Slobovia permanently.

Somewhere between the present no limit equals 13 on the same page, and somethng a bit less obnoxious is a good balance.....

although another possible response to abuses like Mr. 13 might be for one of the mods so simply send a PM to that poster, advising him that such conduct dominates the forum, making it obnoxious for others to use and enjoy. Make a specific request for more consideration for other users... and some guidelines. If the poster persists in suing this section for their own personal marketing resource, advise that one he will be asked to leave.... or made to leave by closing their account. Someone made the point, quite valid, I believe, that at times one of our long-time active contributing members might come on to a hard spot, and NEED to liquidate a dozen or more weapons...... and would be forced to do it over three months with a stringent traffic volume rule, when he needs to unload them within a couple of weeks. Yes, there IS Gunbroker, but this is "home" to a lot of us. It can remain that way..... best to deal with those who mess in the yard too often....... keeping the yard clean for others to enjoy. We are yet small enough a friendly and open solution can be found.

Mods, I personally want to thank you for taking your time to look into this, ask for input from those of us who use this place on a regular basis, and come to some sort of decision to make it better. Your efforts ARE appreciated.

 

[goneshooting]

Many of those people ended up here and elsewhere. As a result, AR15.com's Oregon Hometown Forum is a ghost town now.

Thats what happens when there is too many rules and its no longer fun to post but a boards go to do what its got to do

i agree with you all the way and personally like everything the way it is

but if rules are going to be made they should be to benifit the person running this board to keep it alive

the solution i suggested was to kill 2 birds with one stone as a response to Joey's comment

i don't like it i prefer i the was it is , but since some guys do get carried away and have nothing to offer other than their goods for sale and hog the boards with it its tends to erk others

My personally opinion is if you like this board leave it alone and enjoy it but thats just me but sounds like Joey has to do something about it and i hope its not just to respond to a minority that rants but for the hive as a whole.

If someone wants to leave let them they'll be back where else are they gonna go the ghost town on arf?

 

[Trlsmn]

So guys like Lorenzo who do very little on this sight but abuse the classifieds should just be allowed to run-amok? Sorry to go ahead and name names, but that's a fact. Lorenzo has over a dozen separate classified ads. The other day I bumped my ad to the front page. Within the hour, it was on the second page because he had bumped all thirteen of his ads. There's no problems with him using the classified ads, or anyone using them for that matter. But thirteen separate ads at one time is an abuse.

Look, I may not have the best ideas for cleaning up the classified sections. I admit that. But something needs to be done. We cannot allow the fear of alienating users to allow the classified section to screw up an excellent sight.

Exactly and the fact is these guys that abuse the classifieds are the one alienating the members even now. I am constantly receiving PM's about these abusers and unfortunately unless they break a rule there is absolutely nothing I can do about it

All I can think of is to make those who want to use the classified ads to that level contribute. I use the classified sections a lot, and I am at least a basic contributor. If it keeps the sharks at bay, maybe its reasonable.

And I'm not talking about limiting the other sections. Just the classifieds. If people are lurking simply because they can't use the classifieds, then okay? What do you want to do about that...

 

[Trlsmn]

The other problem we have here is clearly defining who/what is a dealer here at NWFA. To me the difference is someone buying item's in for no other reason than to make a profit from the NWFA members.

In the case of FFL's the distinction is clear but unfortunately with others it is not clear and when questioned about the facts they more often lie about it.

What do you guys think about this? If a guy has an Ad for AR15 barrels with no clear posting of how many he has for sale and has sold a min of 10 barrels so far and seams to have an endless supply do you guys consider that a dealer?

 

[slingshot1943]

I think too much is being made of top posting. A small simple ad on the third page will sell something just as well. It seems the competitive people have found a new pastime. I would recomend internet checkers for them.

 

[Outrider]

What do you guys think about this? If a guy has an Ad for AR15 barrels with no clear posting of how many he has for sale and has sold a min of 10 barrels so far and seams to have an endless supply do you guys consider that a dealer?

In my opinion, he's a dealer. It's one thing if he has a finite supply, say 10-20 barrels he bought because he thought he might not be able to get them later with the election of Obama or they are items he received in trade for services or goods. It's another to basically be in the business of selling them where his inventory is getting replenished, he uses the website's marketplace for his business, and he refuses to get a vendor account.

-I don't know if you ever can really curtail the activities of small dealers without ruining it for the larger group. There used to be an individual on AR15.com who routinely had new gun accessories for sale. He didn't have a merchant account and the inventory was always shifting. As far as I know, AR15.com never stopped him or interfered with his activities because they could never tell for certain whether he was merely an active trader or someone who was running a small side business.

It's not that I'm in favor of more rules. However, we all know the first defense someone has is "There's no rule that says I can't." Maybe you just have to state that the Moderators have the discretion to curtail activities if they suspect a person is a vendor. It could lead to more problems with a lack of clear criteria, but like I have said repeatedly, it's a balancing act. Too many rules and it becomes Byzantine as to what is and what it not allowed. That would turn many people off. Too few rules, and you have anarchy where everyone does whatever he wants and the greediest ruin it for everyone.

 

[paulncharly2572]

The thing is, it's not just one person who abuses the classified system. There are several people who are here strictly to use the classified section and, by any reasonable definition of the word, they are abusing the privilege. Couple this with the fact that 98%+ of their posts are within the classified section ONLY and you have to agree that they contribute nothing else to the site except ticking off other members who actually participate in the forums.

I'll give an example of why someone would refrain from posting in the general forum sections:
http://www.northwestfirearms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13279
I attempted to participate in post #2 and share a Real-World experience that I got tied-up in several years ago,only to be slammed in post #8 of the same thread by some idiot who doesn't have a clue! Yes,I post stuff in the classifieds, and Yes, I have a made a couple modest $$-contributions. I read quite a bit of the other stuff,but I don't jump-in on most of it for that reason.
I completely agree that having too many posts in the classifieds can be annoying, but this thread seems to have turned into an attack on classified-users. No problem; I'll kill-off my ads and refrain from posting any more on this site in the future.