National Fifth circuit injunction against the ATF pistol brace rule.

[Yarome]

One big question I have.

What legal guarantee do I get that the ATF won't WACO me or still send me to club fed anyways?

I don't rightfully think standing there going
"I'm a member of FPC you can't touch me" is going to work.

Also don't feel like sitting in the slam while they win a case either.

Don't get me wrong I'm glad what they've done but I sorta want something provable and legally binding protecting me in the form of more than say a online screen shot showing membership to an organization.

For example I have a USCCA membership but it's no guaranteed get out of jail free card just by having their service. I'm very leery of our gov and it's 3 letters under current administration and history.

There's no guarantee you wouldn't be arrested and charged with murder either... even if there is no reasonable proof you were even there and all you had was the word of your alibi... and... legal standing that you can't be convicted of a crime you didn't commit.

You can still get jammed up in the process, but exactly how likely is that... and is it really something you are going to worry about happening that you change major elements of your life over??

Anythings possible... but let's be realistic. Why are they going to target you? What crime did you commit to draw their attention? Why are they going to charge you with a law currently pending in the courts where you are immediately able to provide reasonable proof you fall within a courts legal exemption order??

Is the sky falling?

 

[E4mafia]

Some people like being assured that what they're paying for actually works and will protect them.

Is that too much to ask?

 

[Yarome]

Some people like being assured that what they're paying for actually works and will protect them.

Is that too much to ask?

Not at all. And I think you're right in the respect that joining those groups to duck under their umbrella shouldn't really be considered as paying for any assurance of protection. It's worthwhile to support them, and if it works to a persons additional advantage... then great! However, any of those injunctions could be lifted at any moment so... if a person is going to feel they paid their money and got nothing in return for it.... maybe it's better to just take the brace off and wait until it all shakes out and safe to put it back on.

That's "free" and "safe".






Wait for it... here come the "constructive possession" police.

 

[E4mafia]

My thought process is basically this.

When stopped in traffic you can produce a driver's license it is recognized.

Employees get healthcare thru their employers (good ones anyways) and have a card or policy to show for it.

I'm just skeptical of showing a screen shot saying I paid at least $30 vs a $200 tax stamp if asked is going to hold up well enough. My understanding is a safe practice for even the people with their SBR tax stamps is to keep a couple copies just for safety.
My original post likely came with too much hyperbole.

I love the work being done and I hope more is accomplished for all our sakes regarding the 2A. Just years ago this same agency said braces were ok before flipping. It also doesn't inspire much confidence watching the head of the agency testify before a committee about braces with a ton of "uh um" and deflecting comments.

Add in recent hostility to the 2A as a whole at the local and state level adds to this.

 

[Yarome]

My thought process is basically this.

When stopped in traffic you can produce a driver's license it is recognized.

Employees get healthcare thru their employers (good ones anyways) and have a card or policy to show for it.

These days though... "digital proof" is just as accepted. IE., Showing a copy of your auto insurance policy cover sheet on your phone is accepted. An email receipt that you paid your auto registration renewal is accepted.

In that light... I would imagine that accessing your online account to show that your member status is current with the appropriate 2A group would be accepted, too. Although you might want to keep a copy of the court order handy as well.

Since we're talking about an alphabet encounter though, you would hope they know at least half as much as the average gun owner knows about their job... and are aware of the applicable court orders. It's certainly not a given they do though.

It's hypothetical, but since we're doing the "what if thing"... KWIM.

 

[Xaevian]

These days though... "digital proof" is just as accepted. IE., Showing a copy of your auto insurance policy cover sheet on your phone is accepted. An email receipt that you paid your auto registration renewal is accepted.

Don't EVER give your phone over. Even to show a digital whatever. EVER.

 

[Yarome]

Don't EVER give your phone over. Even to show a digital whatever. EVER.

Good advice, but whoever said anything about handing over your phone? Sorry if that's how it sounded, but pulling it up to allow an officer to look at it and record the required info isn't an issue. These days though.. most wont even request anything other than your DL. Systems are so integrated that pulling your DMV record now shows your valid (or not) insurance and registration record on the main screen.

My daughter was hit by another driver and we had just changed auto insurance companies 2 days prior. She didn't have her new ins card with her but turns out the new carrier was already updated in the system and popped on her DMV record. All she provided the LEO was her DL.

Varies by jurisdiction maybe(?)

It should be a no brainer not to hand your phone over and allow officer browsing....

 

[ilikegunspdx]

My thought process is basically this.

When stopped in traffic you can produce a driver's license it is recognized.

Employees get healthcare thru their employers (good ones anyways) and have a card or policy to show for it.

I'm just skeptical of showing a screen shot saying I paid at least $30 vs a $200 tax stamp if asked is going to hold up well enough. My understanding is a safe practice for even the people with their SBR tax stamps is to keep a couple copies just for safety.
My original post likely came with too much hyperbole.

I love the work being done and I hope more is accomplished for all our sakes regarding the 2A. Just years ago this same agency said braces were ok before flipping. It also doesn't inspire much confidence watching the head of the agency testify before a committee about braces with a ton of "uh um" and deflecting comments.

Add in recent hostility to the 2A as a whole at the local and state level adds to this.

Imo the only potential value of being a member of x organization is when you are putting up a defense in court. I believe any Leo won't recognize it as anything.

Having the stamp is the only true protection imo until (hopefully) scotus nullifies this brace rule. These lower court rulings are often temporary (some times measured in days not weeks) and tenuous at best imo.

One strategy that some use is to stamp some of their guns and not others. Most people don't have just one lower Fe. I think it's very similar to the 68' machine gun amnesty. Some people registered none of their guns and now they have guns they have to hide. Some people registered all their guns. Some hedged their bets and registered some but not all. Those guns that were registered could be used legally since 68' and still can be used or sold today even though machine guns are banned.

Seems to me a lot of people think in terms of "compliance" or "non compliance". Others think in terms of "being on the registry" or not. Those are all valid imo but I would say don't get stuck there. Think it through for you. For me for some guns I think of it more in terms of benefit vs risk. Fe the benefit of adding a stock and vertical grip. This can be transformative for some guns vs a brace and can be a huge benefit. Or it can be no benefit depending on personal preferences and how you want to set it up. A couple examples below. Everyone has their own sense of benefits and risks. The best we can do is gather the facts and make the best judgement for you and your own use/needs/preferences.



T

 

[nwslopoke]

It depends on where you live. The laws are basically meaninglessness. They literally change the meaning of words to suit their desires. They impeached Trump when he wasn't in office and other whacko rulings. The law is what those in control say it is. Since they know the public won't drag them out naked.

However, J6 either did shake them or had them pretending to be shaking. They put up a wall around the capital for some weeks.

So if you live in Arkansas or Tennessee you'll be in a better situation with your braced pistol than on the west coast.

 

[The Heretic]

What legal guarantee do I get that the ATF won't WACO me or still send me to club fed anyways?

If you were not an FPC member when the suit was filed (or when the injunction invoked), or you are not in the fifth district, then none at all?

Outside the fifth district, the gov can still arrest someone (after June 1st) and take them to court for violation of the ban.

Basically, until the issue goes to the SCOTUS, it is still something that you should be very careful about - IMO.

Unless you have a tax stamp.

 

[bellarum]

Pretty soon I'm going to need a separate wallet just for membership cards

 

[RX-79G]

They impeached Trump when he wasn't in office and other whacko rulings.

It isn't "wacko". You impeach an out of office elected official to prevent them from getting elected again.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

It isn't "wacko". You impeach an out of office elected official to prevent them from getting elected again.

This is the one where everyone piles on you about hOw hE wAs tReAteD uNfAirly and i kNeW yOu hAtEd tRuMp! and all of that just because you pointed out WHY they did it but offered up absolutely no opinion of your own on IF they should have done it

I'll just be sitting here waiting for the inevitable

 

[Yarome]

This is the one where everyone piles on you about hOw hE wAs tReAteD uNfAirly....

I'll just be sitting here waiting for the inevitable

Or ignore the continuous political trolling on a firearm forum....

Whichever shall it be!

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Or ignore the continuous political trolling on a firearm forum....

Whichever shall it be!

Well, if you think the post that brought the topic up in the first place was engaging in (non firearms) "political trolling" there's a button for that

 

[ilikegunspdx]

View attachment 1428066





This is the one where everyone piles on you about hOw hE wAs tReAteD uNfAirly and i kNeW yOu hAtEd tRuMp! and all of that just because you pointed out WHY they did it but offered up absolutely no opinion of your own on IF they should have done it

I'll just be sitting here waiting for the inevitable

Don't know what that's about cuz I have whoever posted #52 above on ignore but political bs is against the rules on this forum as I recall.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Don't know what that's about cuz I have whoever posted #52 above on ignore but political bs is against the rules on this forum as I recall.

So I've heard


ETA: It wasn't post #52 that brought it up

 

[nwslopoke]

It isn't "wacko". You impeach an out of office elected official to prevent them from getting elected again.

Or you use evidence where you can prove illegal acts and within the long standing time limits. It is whacko to change what a word means to meet your claim.

 

[RX-79G]

Or you use evidence where you can prove illegal acts and within the long standing time limits. It is whacko to change what a word means to meet your claim.

Congress impeached William Blount while out-of-office in 1797. What do you mean by "long standing"?

 

[Yarome]

So I've heard


ETA: It wasn't post #52 that brought it up

Making an anecdotal comment as an example to illustrate a point along the same lines of the main topic of his post is not an invitation to dive head first over the cliff of the political spectrum.

IOW, no need to Hilary it.




Just like "that" is not an invitation to delve into the whole hidden server issue.