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So it seems like 2 instant drop shots are the Autonomic Plexus and the High Shoulder Shot, though the high shoulder shot tends to ruing some meat. So the high shoulder shot aims for the scapula/ shoulder blade on broadside shots, while the Autonomic Plexus can work for frontal quartering shots. This seems to cover a wide range of positions except for rear quartering and straight away shots ("texas heart shots").

Im also assuming here this is the same for larger elk just everything is scaled up in size....
 
Shot placement is very important.

With that said....
Learning to hunt , understanding the animal that you hunt and knowing the land in which you hunt...
Plays a larger role in my thinking of and actual hunting experiences.

Reading a lot 'bout hunting on here and other forums...
It seems as if there is far more emphasis on what rifle / load / scope /boots / clothing etc...
Instead of sharing or discussion of actual hunting skills.
Andy
 
Having guided numerous people on their first Antelope hunts (kids and adults), the double-lung chest shot is certainly preferred, but toward that I always tell shooters of less experience, "CROWD THE SHOULDER!"

This is as a result of having to followup on a few that were hit mid-section instead of forward in the chest. Giving up a few shoulder steaks beats the hell out of dog-trotting for miles after an adrenaline-charged wounded goat. The idea is not necessarily to hit the shoulder, but insure the bullet is forward in the ribcage. Should shoulder impact occur, the racecar of the prairie has lost one of four wheels (with Pronghorns, this may or may not slow them down).

On running game where shot placement cannot be precise, I have been startled by the suddenness of a kill when the bullet impacts at the cleft that resides at the junction of the neck and shoulder.

A 6x6 Bob Marshall bull ran full speed with his herd at 175yards. I collapsed in knee-deep snow to sitting position, slinged my left elbow, gave him an educated guess as to lead, and the 150grain Ballistic Tip from the .270 caught him right in the ball of the shoulder, exiting out the blade of the far shoulder. Everything in between was the trailer park in a tornado of bone fragments and bullet. He nose-dived and skidded in a cloud of dry 15-degree snow.
 
I always tell shooters of less experience, "CROWD THE SHOULDER!"
This is what I grew up with and it just works. Never knew the science behind it, but if ever uncertain aim for the shoulder.
After ruining some front shoulder meat I learned the "meat saver shot"... Just behind the shoulder for a double lung. This works great but they can run. I always recovered them but was concerned on a few. Over the years ive just aimed for this, if it wasnt braodside then just aimed for the front shoulder. Ive done a few high neck shots at close range but thats an exception.

So I thought Id read more about the science behind real shot placement, this has been an informative discussion.
 
rear quartering and straight away shots ("texas heart shots").
I don't do straight away shots. I suppose if I did, I'd aim for the neck or back of head. Seems like that would require a standing animal rather than a running animal. And if it's standing, why not wait til it turns? (I learned not to do running shots too... not good at them.)

The quartering away shot that I did, I figured to draw a line thru the anatomy I wanted to hit, heart/lungs, to a place on the outside. For the angle of the elk that was running after my first shot, that seemed to be the back portion of the rib cage. At any rate, it worked. I figure if I had found the bullet, it would have been right behind the farside front shoulder at that angle.

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"CROWD THE SHOULDER!"
It helps if you can wait for the animal to take a step forward with the front leg on the side you're looking at, you get a bit more space to aim at just behind the front shoulder towards the front of the rib cage, ahead of the diaphragm.

I try to make solid lung hits, in part to help "bleed" the animal, which is important because blood left in the vascular system is an ideal medium for bacterial growth. In the pressurized vascular system, I want the last couple beats of the animal's heart to pump as much blood out of a rupture of some sort to help internally clean the meat in that way. There's nothing to me (hunting-wise) as satisfying as finding the chest cavity just full of goopy liquid blood. Where I hunt elk in the Coast Range and they could easily go down into some steep ravine or other hard spot for retrieval, if I'm worried about the location in that way, I'll happily put the bullet right through the front shoulder to try to ensure that they're anchored right there, well worth the trade-off in meat loss.
 
It helps if you can wait for the animal to take a step forward with the front leg on the side you're looking at, you get a bit more space to aim at just behind the front shoulder towards the front of the rib cage, ahead of the diaphragm.

I try to make solid lung hits, in part to help "bleed" the animal, which is important because blood left in the vascular system is an ideal medium for bacterial growth. In the pressurized vascular system, I want the last couple beats of the animal's heart to pump as much blood out of a rupture of some sort to help internally clean the meat in that way. There's nothing to me (hunting-wise) as satisfying as finding the chest cavity just full of goopy liquid blood. Where I hunt elk in the Coast Range and they could easily go down into some steep ravine or other hard spot for retrieval, if I'm worried about the location in that way, I'll happily put the bullet right through the front shoulder to try to ensure that they're anchored right there, well worth the trade-off in meat loss.
Wow! You get pretty scientific.

Rest assured, a lung-shot ungulate "internally cleans" the meat through copious blood-flow beyond what we could ever ask for. "Cutting the Throat" on an animal approached after the shot may have been the fashion in days gone by. When ammunition is at a premium, "finishing" with a knife after a lead-bullet shot that wasn't entirely decisive makes perfect sense.

We share an understanding, a desire and a learned interpretation of what constitutes a clean kill.

And we share the value in a hard shoulder shot to get things done.
 
There may be an impression I gave here that I "swear" by a shoulder shot above that of an assured (forward) ribcage shot.

I could never make such a recommendation. I am also a bowhunter.

I struggle in two worlds: one where I have the power to "break an animal down", and the other where I have the power to "precisely take a life".

The whole shoulder deal breaks down where an arrow is concerned. Believe me: I know. Because I learned. The HARD way.

In Archery, the shoulder is NO MAN'S LAND. To be avoided at ALL costs.

And so, I have a toggle switch I have to activate about shoulder shots, depending on my weapon.
 
Rest assured, a lung-shot ungulate "internally cleans" the meat through copious blood-flow beyond what we could ever ask for.
@Spitpatch , I'm not sure if you misunderstood something in what I wrote, but that was exactly my point. I was referring to letting the physiology of the body itself do the "bleeding," not an after-the-fact "cutting of the throat" bleeding in the ways you described. I was thinking about some of the "high neck" and spinal shots that others were talking about, which don't seem like they would necessarily have such a high-volume blood loss in this way as a shot through the lungs.

I had a friend who ate meat from a bison that had been shot in the head at point-blank range with a .45 and then wasn't "bled" in any sort of manner before butchering... She said the meat tasted terrible and had an intense flavor of rancid blood.

We share an understanding, a desire and a learned interpretation of what constitutes a clean kill.
Cheers to that and to many successful hunts with as clean of kills as possible!
 
@Spitpatch , I'm not sure if you misunderstood something in what I wrote, but that was exactly my point. I was referring to letting the physiology of the body itself do the "bleeding," not an after-the-fact "cutting of the throat" bleeding in the ways you described. I was thinking about some of the "high neck" and spinal shots that others were talking about, which don't seem like they would necessarily have such a high-volume blood loss in this way as a shot through the lungs.

I had a friend who ate meat from a bison that had been shot in the head at point-blank range with a .45 and then wasn't "bled" in any sort of manner before butchering... She said the meat tasted terrible and had an intense flavor of rancid blood.


Cheers to that and to many successful hunts with as clean of kills as possible!
It would seem to me (and you, apparently) that a "head-shot Bison" might not bleed out to the degree desired.

We are in total agreement.
 
That sounds like a fantastic resource!
There are some animals, such as bears, that I always hear about people losing after what was called as a good shot. I've heard the "fat sealed the hole" thing. Looking at the diagrams, their organs sit lower vs a deer and the bullets may have gone through the space above the lungs and under the spine. It would explain the lost animals.
 
I guess we can narrow it down to "No gut or butt shots". In the real world, we don't know precisely what range the animal is at, and they are likely moving or at best standing still in an awkward position (quartering away or toward) or directly. I took a quartering away shot on a nice Muley years ago. Who would have thought that at the second I broke the shot, he would jump over a deadfall? Yup, perfect "Texas Brain Shot". Plenty of damage stem to stern, but he was dead. Not pretty.
This fall while hunting central Montana for Whitetails, I had the pleasure of hunting in high constant winds. In those conditions, the deer tend to rely on what they can see, as hearing and scent is degraded. Deer tend to get out into big mowed alfalfa sections, right in the middle. A hunter is lucky to get to 400 yards at best. Not the best of conditions for a perfect shot. It was well over a week until I stumbled on a 3x3 standing broadside to me, 150 yards, and the wind wasn't screaming. No time for fancy marksmanship. I high lung shot offhand settled the matter. Remarkably, this was right at the end of the season around Thanksgiving. Normally, the rut is underway by then, but they hadn't started the mating ritual. I spoke to my rancher buddy after I returned home, and he said the rut started around the 5th of December. Sometimes, the "Perfect Shot" is the one you can take.
I might add that I still cut his throat. He bled out plenty well in the chest cavity, but you still have to get the esophagus out.

Regards,
Bill
 
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This was my placement on my deer this year it was standing more quarter to me and standing slightly down hill it entered low neck/ shoulder and exited out the crease of the far side shoulder. He sloppily ran down hill about 20 yards stopped and I promptly put another through his guts as he was about to drop any how oops. My theory is aim for front kill and exit kill zones both get as much as possible. This photo I'd expect massive trauma to chest cavity one broken leg and good blood possibly drop right there total shock and traumaaa. If I'm in a rush and he's running or need a quick shot I tend to touch off right on the crease. Some times I'm left sometimes right but gives some wiggle room.
 
This was my placement on my deer this year it was standing more quarter to me and standing slightly down hill it entered low neck/ shoulder and exited out the crease of the far side shoulder. He sloppily ran down hill about 20 yards stopped
Makes me wonder how big this Autonomic Plexus spot is, supposedly they will drop like a rock but the good news is any impact around it is still a lethal shot like you experienced.
 
I have taken to sticking animals as soon as practical just like a butcher does on beef. It is amazing how blood free everything stays in the gut cavity when you cut the carotid and thoroughly bleed them out. While I don't recommend it to newer hunters, there are very few angles I don't feel comfortable taking a shot at reasonable distance. You just have to have confidence in bullet performance and ability to place shot accurately. The 3d modeling of game animal construction and organ placement are great to figure out where to shoot at almost any angle.
 
Depends on the angle of shot provided.

I tend to look at animals in 3D more than 2 dimensional initial impact, meaning I factor in expected path of travel, through which organs, and adjust accordingly.

Having guided numerous people on their first Antelope hunts (kids and adults), the double-lung chest shot is certainly preferred, but toward that I always tell shooters of less experience, "CROWD THE SHOULDER!"
Except for the first deer I shot, which was facing me and took a chest shot that went out the spine and dropped him instantly, you'd think I intended to blast the shoulder bone and destroy one shoulder. Every, single, one. Apparently carrying Spit's advice to "crowd the shoulder" a bit too much. It's also amazing how fast an elk can run with a blown up shoulder, but with both lungs vaporized only went about 30 yards. 2020 deer, a bit too far back and high on the left side (he was facing me much like the one in Zechariah's pic). Broke the shoulder, took out the top of the lungs and lodged against the hide in front of the right hip. He went about 15 yards. This last season was the first one that I was able to clean both shoulder blades since my first buck. I was above, behind and slightly to the left of the deer when I shot. High in the ribs (left side) on entry, out just in front of the shoulder low (right side). He jumped once and kicked three times. Lungs gone.
My experience is that a lung shot won't drop 'em where they stand, but they won't go far.

I, too, look at an animal in 3d and try to poke thru the heart/lungs. I'm not a bad shot, but I prefer to pick a small spot on a large target instead of a small target like the head.
 
I have taken to sticking animals as soon as practical just like a butcher does on beef. It is amazing how blood free everything stays in the gut cavity when you cut the carotid and thoroughly bleed them out. While I don't recommend it to newer hunters, there are very few angles I don't feel comfortable taking a shot at reasonable distance. You just have to have confidence in bullet performance and ability to place shot accurately. The 3d modeling of game animal construction and organ placement are great to figure out where to shoot at almost any angle.
It's my understanding that cutting the carotids is effective only if the heart is still beating. If the heart isn't beating then blood pressure is zero.
If the heart doesn't pump, what forces the blood out?



P
 

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