Don't pay for conceal carry insurance.. Ever.

[IronMonster]

All insurance is organized crime with the odds stacked significantly for the guys getting your money. Out of all the insurance I pay the thought of $10 a month for legal protections in a use of force case seems the least criminal.


And I should say that if you included my shop insurance and health care I am paying close to $1200 a month. I'm pretty sure that extra $10 would not be my biggest concern

 

[NSDQ]

How much is a typical retainer fee and what happens after you personally retain your lawyer? The cost of your entire court case easily jumps into the 100's of thousands of dollars!

I don't really know if you've been paying attention at all to what I've been saying.

1. Yes if you get charged it can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend yourself worst case scenario. The average self defense legal cost is around 10k on the high end. If you legally defended yourself a decent lawyer will be able to knock the case pre trial. You would be shocked at how many people are never charged with crimes because of a lawyer preventing a charge.

2. If I were to take Kleck's statistic which I believe to be over inflated numbers (Btw these are numbers from 1997 when violent crime rates were more than double in the US) I have a 0.7 percent chance of spending 10k (10k is for a TRIAL DEFENSE which accounts for less than 10 percent of self defense cases).
Are you starting to see a picture? Lets pretend you spend 60 years paying for a subscription service like CCW Safe at 150 dollars a year or 9000 dollars. That 9000 is not refundable. Its lost. Or you could put 150 dollars into an savings account or an investment in which it actually gains investment value and use the money if and when it happens at a probability of less than .7 percent (which in reality is .3 percent)

3. You have a .3 percent chance of having to pay 10k in your lifetime to defend yourself ( if it goes to trial). And IF YOU LOSE with CCW SAFE you have to pay the criminal and civil penalties. If you get an underwritten policy from Lloyds you can pay 3 dollars a month. Or 36 bucks a year for a million dollar policy. Think how cheap that is. And you know LLoyds is making money off this policy. Why? Because the odds are low.

 

[Koda]

I don't really know if you've been paying attention at all to what I've been saying.

1. Yes if you get charged it can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend yourself worst case scenario. The average self defense legal cost is around 10k on the high end. If you legally defended yourself a decent lawyer will be able to knock the case pre trial. You would be shocked at how many people are never charged with crimes because of a lawyer preventing a charge.

2. If I were to take Kleck's statistic which I believe to be over inflated numbers (Btw these are numbers from 1997 when violent crime rates were more than double in the US) I have a 0.7 percent chance of spending 10k (10k is for a TRIAL DEFENSE which accounts for less than 10 percent of self defense cases).
Are you starting to see a picture? Lets pretend you spend 60 years paying for a subscription service like CCW Safe at 150 dollars a year or 9000 dollars. That 9000 is not refundable. Its lost. Or you could put 150 dollars into an savings account or an investment in which it actually gains investment value and use the money if and when it happens at a probability of less than .7 percent (which in reality is .3 percent)

3. You have a .3 percent chance of having to pay 10k in your lifetime to defend yourself ( if it goes to trial). And IF YOU LOSE with CCW SAFE you have to pay the criminal and civil penalties. If you get an underwritten policy from Lloyds you can pay 3 dollars a month. Or 36 bucks a year for a million dollar policy.

That actually makes sense, thank you for clarifying. Yet in reality many people don't think about personally setting aside, and maintaining, a specific investment fund specifically for legal defense.... its much easier to blow the 9000 dollars over 60 years (which isn't exactly "expensive"). This might boil down to what works easier for the individual

 

[Stomper]

Yeah 1:325 makes me want to go out and get a policy lol you should be getting a commission check. then again odds of winning a dollar on a scratch ticket are 1:3.86 and I never get that.

Ok, this whole issue is bogus! There isn't a Genisis 1:325 to begin with....


I hear what the OP is saying. Get underwritten directly from the source instead of a "reseller" service.

 

[BoonDocks36]

Wait?

I thought I had already won ''The dufus thread of the week'?

Medic! Worry not... NSDQ was run over by an 18 Wheeler, filled Stem to Stern, Port to Starboard with Heavy Sarcasm, and I do believe he thought it to be the Ice Cream Wagon making its Jingle Jangle Noise that irritates Parents & Excites Children....

You Might be able to provide a Diagnosis at the Scene of the Accident, but Please be sure you are wearing ALL the OSHA Approved Safety Equipment, needed, to be at a scene of Such an Incident.

As well, Please Recall the TREMENDOUS amount of Triplicate Paperwork you will need to Fill out, if you ~even~ glance at the Traffic Incident.

Said 18 Wheeler, hauling a Shiet Load of Sarcasm as Such was of Course Covered by His Insurance, because he Once heard that driving Sarcasm without Adequate Insurance can get you twisted up in Court, first you wanna Court a Blonde, then a Cute Redhead catches your Eye, and so you Wanna Court her...

Such Decisions can make a Driver wanna Put.

"Fore"!!!!!!!!

philip

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

Personally I think that pre-paid legal is the way to go. The problem is that a defensive gun use incident is most likely to happen in a high crime city away from your home, so you need to pay into a network of lawyers. If it is a good shoot, all you really need is a suit to bail you out quick and be your mouth piece so the cops don't get to work on you when you are in an emotionally altered state.

 

[biggie24420]

I have USCCA and I pay $30/mo. and I have the $1.1 million platinum coverage. I rather pay $30 a month and never use the coverage than to not pay/have it and end up in a bad situation and be screwed. People have to understand though, it's to protect yourself and you have to make sure your actions were justified (a good shoot). So if you plan on being action Jackson and shoot the guy for cutting you off, you will not be protected.
I carry a lot and the chance of me using deadly force is much higher than the person who rarely carries. I don't plan on getting in a car accident but stuff happens and that's why I have car insurance.... well that and it's the law lol, but you catch my drift. Better to have it and not need it because if I need it and don't have it, I'm gonna hate myself.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

Since we don't have a codified Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground laws that protect the defender from civil prosecution after a no bill or not guilty, the scumbags family get to assault you a second time with a wrongful death suit. Which CCW insurance if any pays for that defense?

 

[Medic!]

Medic! Worry not... NSDQ was run over by an 18 Wheeler, filled Stem to Stern, Port to Starboard with Heavy Sarcasm, and I do believe he thought it to be the Ice Cream Wagon making its Jingle Jangle Noise that irritates Parents & Excites Children....

You Might be able to provide a Diagnosis at the Scene of the Accident, but Please be sure you are wearing ALL the OSHA Approved Safety Equipment, needed, to be at a scene of Such an Incident.

As well, Please Recall the TREMENDOUS amount of Triplicate Paperwork you will need to Fill out, if you ~even~ glance at the Traffic Incident.

Said 18 Wheeler, hauling a Shiet Load of Sarcasm as Such was of Course Covered by His Insurance, because he Once heard that driving Sarcasm without Adequate Insurance can get you twisted up in Court, first you wanna Court a Blonde, then a Cute Redhead catches your Eye, and so you Wanna Court her...

Such Decisions can make a Driver wanna Put.

"Fore"!!!!!!!!

philip

Stop! Please stop!

It's after 5pm. I'm drunk now.

 

[biggie24420]

Nick-
My USCCA will pay "$1,000,000 Civil Suit Defense & Damages" I would check it out on their site.

Silver Plus

Up to $300,000 in protection

$13/mo
or one time payment of $147
$250,000

Civil Suit Defense & Damages

$50,000

Criminal Defense Protection

$2,500

Immediate Bail Bond Funding

$250/day

Compensation While In Court

Critical Response Team

24/7/365 Immediate Assistance

Complete Attorney Coordination

Local Referral Within 24 Hours

Psychological Support

Post-Incident Counseling

Concealed Carry Magazine

8 Issues Per Year

$13/mo
or one time payment of $147
Gold Plus

Up to $575,000 in protection

$22/mo
or one time payment of $247
$500,000

Civil Suit Defense & Damages

$75,000

Criminal Defense Protection

$5,000

Immediate Bail Bond Funding

$350/day

Compensation While In Court

Critical Response Team

24/7/365 Immediate Assistance

Complete Attorney Coordination

Local Referral Within 24 Hours

Psychological Support

Post-Incident Counseling

Concealed Carry Magazine

8 Issues Per Year

$22/mo
or one time payment of $247
Platinum Plus


Up to $1,100,000 in protection

$30/mo
or one time payment of $347
$1,000,000

Civil Suit Defense & Damages

$100,000

Criminal Defense Protection

$10,000

Immediate Bail Bond Funding

$500/day

Compensation While In Court

Critical Response Team

24/7/365 Immediate Assistance

Complete Attorney Coordination

Local Referral Within 24 Hours

Psychological Support

Post-Incident Counseling

Concealed Carry Magazine

8 Issues Per Year

<broken link removed>

 

[BoonDocks36]

MAJOR SNIP for reduction to the point...

$30/mo
or one time payment of $347
$1,000,000

Civil Suit Defense & Damages

$100,000

Criminal Defense Protection

$10,000

Immediate Bail Bond Funding

$500/day

Compensation While In Court

Critical Response Team

24/7/365 Immediate Assistance

Complete Attorney Coordination

Local Referral Within 24 Hours

Psychological Support

Post-Incident Counseling

Concealed Carry Magazine

8 Issues Per Year

<broken link removed>

^^^^ THIS ^^^^^

Rather than OP #1 do not buy Squat. The Magazine is worth $$$. The Membership Provides Strength through Unity. And is better than an insurance broker drawing up a policy, even a rider policy onto your existing insurance.

Good enough for me... Starting Membership 07/31/15, when the Eagle Flies.

philip

 

[defending fathers 1787]

If more gun owners purchased insurance or legal services then more competitors would enter the market.

It like term-life... you really hope to never to have to use it.

 

[pioneer461]

I've noticed on a lot of my favorite gun websites are starting to plug conceal carry insurance in case you have to discharge your firearm. Think very very carefully before you decide to start shelling out annual payments for a service you may not ever use. Statistically speaking you, you have a 1:325 (0.3%) chance in your lifetime of ever having to discharge your firearm in self defense. In the Portland Metro area that number is drastically even more remote. 1:875 (0.001142) according to insurance statistics. Many of these companies buy surplus lines of insurance (insurance not covered by regular policies) from Lloyds of London and then resell that policy to you at a markup.

Because of the massively low probability of you ever having to retain such services in your lifetime, these policies are very inexpensive. I've seen some policies written for less than 3 dollars a month. Yet commercial "self defensive insurance" companies charge around 75-200 dollars a year for their services.

If you HAVE to get insurance I suggest getting a specific policy underwritten yourself as opposed to going through a middleman. If it was me I would just put aside that money and retain a criminal defense attorney. Retainers are refundable.

I've been paying into such insurance for over 20 years, and do not regret it. The plan that I have assures me that IF in the unlikely event of a self defense shooting, they will provide an attorney(s) who specializes in self defense cases. To just go out and hire any criminal defense attorney would be a mistake. The average total cost of a self defense case is around $100,000. If you happen to know an attorney who specializes, your self insurance, or umbrella policy may work. Maybe. Plus I have the added benefit of the firm providing all kinds of legal services for other matters at a discount. If you're counting on the odds to decide, I hope it works out for you.

I went through a shooting as a police officer many moons ago, where the city and police association provided legal help, and there was no civil law suit filed by the family. Even if cleared of any criminal charges, you can count on a civil suit in most cases, or in some cases an FBI civil rights investigation. I did not learn of my legal insurance company until after my shooting, but now in retirement, I no longer have the city or the association to count on.

No matter what you decide, practice avoidance if at all possible. It's really not something you want to go through. Ask George Zimmerman.

 

[MaxwellEdison]

There's a reason so many of these CCW insurance companies have popped up in the last year or two. That reason is they're an awesome deal...for the companies selling the "insurance".

As already pointed out, the statistical probability of being involved in a shooting is very low to begin with. Way too low such that buying insurance makes any kind of financial sense. And the number of people who are criminally charged after a shooting is even lower. Which brings up an interesting catch-22: It's highly unlikely criminal charges will be filed unless the prosecutor thinks he has a case. Yet if you are criminally charged and convicted, the insurance won't pay anyway. So this insurance covers a very narrow gap where 1.) You've discharged your firearm and hit someone, 2.) You were criminally charged for it, and 3.) You were found not guilty. I won't say this never happens. But I will say the chances of it happening to any particular person are slim. Very slim. So slim, that buying insurance for it is entirely nonsensical.

Nonetheless, fear is a powerful sales tool. If you can scare people into thinking there's more than a snowball's chance in hell they'll need your product, you can sell 'em whatever it is that will protect them from their fear. Critical thinking and statistics have nothing to do with it at that point. Fear is far more powerful a motivator than mere math.

And there's another angle to this that I wonder if people have thought about: Has anyone considered the possibility that the mere fact you bought insurance specifically in case you shoot someone, might actually be used against you in a criminal or civil trial? I can see it now:

Prosecutor: "So Mr. Shooter, I understand you bought an insurance policy to financially protect yourself in the event you shoot someone."
You: "That's correct."
Prosecutor: "So in other words, shooting someone is clearly something you've spent a lot of time thinking about, correct?"
You: "Well, no. I just..."
Prosecutor: "Please, just answer the question. I presume that before buying an unusual insurance policy like this, you have to put some thought into why you're buying it. I mean, you didn't just wake up and buy it one day, right? And the only reason you would even buy an insurance policy that covers you for shooting someone, is because you envisioned shooting someone, correct? Is there another reason for buying insurance against shooting someone, besides you thinking you might want to shoot someone?"

And on and on it will go. Trust me...after a good prosecutor gets done with you, you'll look like Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot combined. On a good day. Yet I wonder if anyone who has bought this insurance has even considered the notion that it could very much work against you if you actually have to use it.

I suppose you could ask the companies that sell this insurance how often this has happened, but that will only take you back to my first point. Because I know for a fact that CCWSafe hasn't even handled a single trial under their insurance. Why? Because such trials are so rare to begin with.

It's your money. Spend it as you please. But don't think you're "being smart" or "being prepared" by buying this insurance. Because really, you're just being a gambler on the very poor side of the odds.

 

[OREGON FALER]

And also, from personal experience, I have called and talked to an underwriter regarding the liability section of my home policy and set up a scenario where I had to use my firearm to shoot someone who attacked me. This is what he said, " your homeowner's insurance likely wont pay in that self defense situation because you used a firearm intentionally to harm someone" the key thing to focus on is "Intentional acts" and it has no regard for self defense or legally justified.
He also said " an Umbrella policy would very likely pay out in that same self defense scenario because there is no wording of intentional acts" I'll paraphrase what he said next because I don't remember it exactly. He said the wording of the Personal Umbrella had language regarding coverage for the insured (me) for all acts for which I am Legally obligated to pay up to the limits of the policy.

Some of you folks will have an umbrella, it might be worth looking into, just to see what the language is on your own personal insurance. The company was Farmer's in this case and obviously Oregon.

 

[rick benjamin]

I've been paying into such insurance for over 20 years, and do not regret it. The plan that I have assures me ...

Could you share the company's name? I am interested in being insured.

 

[pharmseller]

My wife brought this up this morning. Need to do some research.

 

[finnmike]

FWIW the ONLY insurance available in Washington is US LawShield. Not the best like CCWS but is all that is available. Cheaper than a new Smith 442, and better than mortgaging your house to pay for attorneys fees. YMMV but consider your exposure in today's litigious society.

 

[MaxwellEdison]

Just like I said 5+ years ago...CCW insurance is one of the biggest scams going right now. It is marketed entirely on unjustified fears, to the same type of people who buy lottery tickets. I.e., people who are really, really bad at math. And logic.

If you want to have some fun, contact any of the companies that offer this silly product and ask "How much have you paid out in claims?"

They won't tell you. And there's a reason for that: if you knew, you'd quickly realize how worthless the product is.

 

[finnmike]

Whatever....you have the last word. Enjoy it.