Clarification Needed on Oregon Carry Laws

[PDX1953]

Fellow members -

Three close relatives attended a firearms training / carry class yesterday. The instructors were retired LEO (one State & one local) and two retired military from Army / Air Force. My relatives were already experienced shooters but took the class so they can apply for carry permits.

A couple of things stuck out when they were telling me about it. The discussion of NFA items came up and whoever was speaking about it kept calling the Tax Stamp a "Duck Stamp". Maybe he was trying to be funny or simply misspoke but he also stated if a person buys a MG with a suppressor it'd only require one $200 stamp for both NFA items. At that point I mentally began questioning nearly everything they'd been told.

They were told by one of the retired LEO's that if an officer asks you're legally required to inform them if you're carrying & that they can then inspect your weapon and run the s/n. I was under the impression (perhaps wrongly) the only time you're required to inform them is if you're being placed under arrest and if they ask you can refuse to answer. Refusal to answer would most likely cause an officer to go on defense however if I was stopped, based on the initial interaction I'd be inclined to volunteer that I was carrying. If they started off with what I call a "cop attitude" I wouldn't volunteer anything.

I'm not the 'carry a gun openly to assert my rights' kind of guy like you see on YouTube and those types ruin it for law abiding citizens. I bought Kevin Starrett's book a couple of years ago but it's in storage at the moment and I don't remember if my questions regarding informing LEO's was covered. I'd appreciate some knowledgeable responses and if possible Statute Citations if available. It's possible what I've considered to be my "rights" regarding these matters are based on hearsay and not actual law.

I have a lot of respect for courteous & professional LEO's but have known a couple of them quite well socially (in a state just south of OR) & they were not professional. One guy would start playing darts with my brother-in-law & I on Saturday mornings & we drank beer for hours. Then he'd go on duty at 4:00 PM & admitted a couple of times that his partner had to drive b/c he was too drunk. Not the norm but it taints a person's attitude after seeing it occur repeatedly.

Thanks in advance.

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[The Heretic]

Re informing LEO that you are carrying:

 

[IronMonster]

I know there is precedent which allows an officer to pat you down if they suspect you have a weapon and might be a threat. I also know that responding to the question "do you have a weapon" in the affirmative is grounds for them to do that pat down if they choose to
(An officer can always say they were just being cautious and be well within the law allowing them to pat you down for a "officer safety check")

I am not sure what Oregon law is about notifying LE about a concealed handgun. I know states vary on what is required. I always notify LE if there is a firearm present out of an abundance of caution on my part (I would rather end up in cuffs because I told them than end up in cuffs because I didn't)

Most people have not had the interactions with LE I have. I am not so worried about what my "rights" are during a stop as I am going home at the end of it. I will do my best to play the game they want to play even if they are violating those rights. (Currently at least, because I know in the long run I am more likely to keep the cuffs off and go home with my guns, if things devolve into a police state I'll regroup)

In my experience, guys who start spouting "I know my rights! You can't do this! I'll sue!" Are gonna have a bad time, even if they are right.

 

[The Heretic]

I spout nothing. I volunteer nothing. I say nothing that I do not need to say.

While a LEO can arrest you for just about any excuse - in court, the general rule is that what you don't say cannot be used against you. There may be some law that says that you need to tell a LEO that you are armed, but I do not know of anyone convicted for not volunteering that information. If they lie, sure, but not if they simply do not answer.

Constitutionally, in general, I cannot be compelled to volunteer any information to a LEO, and that has been my general practice and advise.

FWIW - I used to be a federal LEO, I still know a lot of LEOs in various agencies/etc. - I even have a close relative that is NCIS. I have nothing against LEOs - I believe that most do an important thankless job to the best of their abilities, but I just keep my mouth shut as much as possible and that is my advice to others.

 

[Hawaiian]

166.380 Examination of firearm by peace officer; presentation of concealed handgun license. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, a peace officer may examine a firearm possessed by anyone on the person while in or on a public building to determine whether the firearm is a loaded firearm.

(2) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun may present a valid concealed handgun license to the peace officer instead of providing the firearm to the peace officer for examination. [1969 c.705 §3; 2015 c.605 §1]

Note, section (2) was amended in 2015. Prior to this, you could be arrested for refusal to allow inspection.

 

[IronMonster]

I spout nothing. I volunteer nothing. I say nothing that I do not need to say.

While a LEO can arrest you for just about any excuse - in court, the general rule is that what you don't say cannot be used against you. There may be some law that says that you need to tell a LEO that you are armed, but I do not know of anyone convicted for not volunteering that information. If they lie, sure, but not if they simply do not answer.

Constitutionally, in general, I cannot be compelled to volunteer any information to a LEO, and that has been my general practice and advise.

FWIW - I used to be a federal LEO, I still know a lot of LEOs in various agencies/etc. - I even have a close relative that is NCIS. I have nothing against LEOs - I believe that most do an important thankless job to the best of their abilities, but I just keep my mouth shut as much as possible and that is my advice to others.

While I agree not volunteering any more than what is absolutely required is wise, I also think being cooperative when you are an upstanding citizen is prudent. It's a fine line.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

IMO if ive done nothing wrong (other than a traffic violation obviously if im bing stopped)i have no reason not to tell them. before he/she gets to the window i have my license, insurance and chl in my right hand out the window with my left hand on the st. wheel. i usually say "hello officer (insert name) i would like to inform you for our safety that i am legally carrying a concealed handgun. here is my license, my chl and insurance" i have not got a ticket a few times when i definitely deserved one.

their job is hard enough. they know you have a chl before they get out of their car whether or not you marked the "public information" box on the application. i believe making their job easier by being respectful and courteous will go a long way.

i come from keizer though. almost everyone here is pro-gun. even the local PD. heck, my neighbor is a deputy chief and loves comin over to BS about guns.

i do not have any experience with Portland police or larger cities so take my advice for what its worth.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

and to clarify... IIRC each NFA item needs its own stamp.so a short barrel suppressed selectfire AR15= 3 stamps.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

 

[IronMonster]

and to clarify... IIRC each NFA item needs its own stamp.so a short barrel suppressed selectfire AR15= 3 stamps.

Are you sure about that? I thought machine gun trumps everything? A factory full auto integral suppressed SBR being one stamp, But a suppressed semi auto SBR takes two.

I could be wrong

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

Are you sure about that? I thought machine gun trumps everything? A factory full auto integral suppressed SBR being one stamp, But a suppressed semi auto SBR takes two.

I could be wrong

yeah i think you got me there.

screw the NFA

 

[PDX1953]

and to clarify... IIRC each NFA item needs its own stamp.so a short barrel suppressed select fire AR15= 3 stamps.

The way I understand it is:

If it's a select fire H&K MP5 with a 5" barrel or a H&K 21 select fire rifle with a 16" barrel it's the full-auto capability that drives the NFA classification. H&K makes a semi-auto MP5 so it wouldn't be classed as an SBR unless a stock was added. A suppressor adds another $200 to anything so the max you'd pay would be $400 - unless you hang a short shotgun under the barrel of the rifle & then it's be another $5.00 for an AOW firearm.

I don't believe I've ever seen a select-fire short barreled AR-15 available to a civilian. I'm sure there were pre-'68 M-16's that were select fire but again, I believe I'm correct that w/o a suppressor it'd be a $200 stamp only.

If a person owned a SBR AR-15, a Registered Drop In Auto Sear & a suppressor that'd be $600 because each item stands alone. But perhaps a Class 3 collector could wade in here & set me straight because trust me - I could be wrong!!

 

[IronMonster]

We just had this discussion on another thread, a Colt SMG with a 7" barrel with a DIAS which is a one stamp item as long as it stays assembled

 

[The Heretic]

Every work day I travel across three counties, Yamhill, Washington and Multnomah. I travel through numerous cities, Beaverton, Progress, and Portland - sometimes Hillsboro or Tigard and Sherwood and Newberg among others, between my residence and workplace in downtown PDX. So don't necessarily know the attitude towards gun ownership/possession in each of these jurisdictions - although I have a general idea - but I do know from experience that there are good LEOs and bad LEOs in every department and that sometimes some of them have very bad attitudes regarding civilians they encounter.

I've gotten 3 tickets in 6 years of living here - minor speeding tickets when I wasn't paying attention and let my speed get more than 10+ MPH above the limit and got caught. Two city LEOs and one county deputy sheriff. I almost never carry concealed as I just do not usually feel the need, and the few places I sometimes do feel the need - between my car and my office - I cannot carry because firearms are strictly and explicitly verboten in the office building and by my employer/client, and I would be subject to immediate termination and escorted off the premises without appeal.

I do not currently have a permit, but I intend to get one because there are a few other times when that permit would cover me where I have a handgun concealed in my vehicle and it might be an edge case (the handgun in a storage compartment that technically isn't easily accessible, but isn't locked either) or clearly is accessible (when I have just bought a firearm and put it on the seat beside me), and there are a few times when I want to carry on my person (when I carry large amounts of money - usually to buy a firearm or some other "toy", which is several times a year).

So, in the future, 99% of the time I would have a permit, but not have a firearm on my person or anywhere easily accessible to me (I almost always have one in my vehicle, stored in an in a compartment that is "inaccessible" to the passenger compartment) so generally, no LEO has anything to fear from me in an ordinary traffic stop - although I am well aware that they do not know that.

Just because a person has a permit does not mean they are carrying a concealed handgun. Indeed, what it means is the person has had some modicum of training in firearms safety, supposedly the laws regarding their usage, has had a criminal background check and is therefore probably less likely to be a threat to a LEO than a person without those aspects to their character - especially given the wide range of people LEOs experience. If anything, this person is most likely a very law abiding person, who has gone through the trouble and expense to explicitly follow the law regarding firearms, and is more likely to be a law enforcement ally than a threat.

Doubly so in my case as a former federal LEO with more training/experience in firearms safety and lethal force and laws than most civilians.

This is where we are as a culture/society - where civilians with firearms are considered a priori to be a threat to LEOs (and by extension, both society and government) by our simple possession of a firearm. This is not by accident, neither on the part of the government, the courts or law enforcement, and mostly without justification.

We are what I call a "legal minority" due to our ownership of an inanimate object; gun owners are a minority in the US populace today, and we have our constitutional rights infringed every day - not just with regards to gun ownership, but other rights too - including our 4th amendment rights, among others - and it has been this way for decades, with little recognition of this fact by anyone outside of our minority.

So excuse me if I am somewhat argumentative and defensive when it comes to firearms. I consider this no different than any other minority or other oppressed group who regularly and systematically has their rights infringed, whether it is because of their ethnicity, their religious views, their rights to marry/love whomever they wish, etc.

If a LEO asked you if you were a muslim, or gay, or hispanic when you got stopped for a traffic ticket, because they were taught/indoctrinated that this group of people were a threat to them, then it would be the same thing - more or less - IMO. And yes, I recognize that as a stretch in logic, but sometimes that is what is needed to make people understand what is going on today in the USA - and it isn't that much of a stretch with muslims or ethnic groups, LEOs just are not as likely to say anything, but they will act differently.

So wake up!

 

[PDX1953]

166.380 Examination of firearm by peace officer; presentation of concealed handgun license.
.......A person who is licensed.....to carry a concealed handgun may present a valid concealed handgun license to the peace officer instead of providing the firearm to the peace officer for examination.

Thanks for this information. I always try to carry my wallet in the door handle pocket in my Flex which eliminates any reason to reach past a holster on my right hip. If I voluntarily informed the officer I was carrying & was asked to produce the firearm for inspection I'd be leery (and probably them too) of reaching for a wallet while explaining they could only view my permit. It could be construed as being argumentative which I'd avoid at all costs because it'd put them on the offense, me on the defense & they have the badge which could lead them to go beyond their legal boundaries.

The last time I was stopped for a traffic violation was 2014 (speeding thru Hood River) & the previous speeding ticket was in CT in 1999 so my interaction with LE has thankfully been very sporadic. I was an Uber driver from July 1 - Nov 15, 2016 & while waiting for a rider asked a WaCo Deputy about how I should handle the situation. I was in Hillsboro so with the combination of the location and a WaCo Deputy everything was fine - no stress. He recommended that I tell an officer but didn't say I was required to. He turned around, took two steps & turned around again & said, "If I had your job I'd carry a gun too." I never did pick up the rider - they got her first & she was headed to jail for assaulting her husband. She'd run to her neighbor's house & called Uber - I was going to be her get-away car.

 

[The Heretic]

A suppressor is definitely a separate NFA item - it is considered a "firearm" in and off itself.

My understanding is that an "auto-sear" that is removable, is also a separate item?

I am not sure about stocked pistols/SBRs that are also select/auto-fire.

But if you remove the select-fire capability, then you are still left with an SBR, and there are states where you can have an SBR but not full-auto (WA state is still that way I think).

 

[IronMonster]

Machine gun still trumps everything in its factory condition. If a machine gun was produced as a integral suppressed SBR, it's a one stamp transfer.

 

[BDA.45]

Are you sure about that? I thought machine gun trumps everything? A factory full auto integral suppressed SBR being one stamp, But a suppressed semi auto SBR takes two.

I could be wrong

Funny, I just looked all this stuff cause I'm interested in a MP5 series weapon (for around $45-50,000 BTW, holy fk the wife's gonna lose her sht) and you would be correct from what I read. Although there is a little grey area I thought of, the can being permanently attached. That would be only 1 stamp cause the "barrel" (with can) is 16+... Someone correct me if I'm wrong......

 

[BDA.45]

Sorry, I should clarify. AR with an 10" upper (non sbr) PERMANENTLY attach a 6" can to it and slap it on. 1 stamp, suppressor.....

 

[IronMonster]

But on a machine gun even if it was less than 16" it's still a single stamp.

On anything other than a machine gun it's either an SBR or it's not. If it's a machine gun it's not an SBR even if it has a less than 16" barrel because it is a machine gun which trumps SBR