Checkpoint cops point guns at motorists

[Nightcrawler]

Sorry, I'm sick of seeing the references to the Dorner related incidents. Dorner was actively driving around looking for cops, and taking shots at them when he found them. Some were wounded and at least one was killed while he did so. If this situation I have seen pictured is accurately described in the accompanying article, there is nothing wrong with the officer's actions, especially since he maintained an indexed trigger finger.

But there in lies the rub...did every motorist sign up to be treated like a perp and have a loaded firearm pointed at them? Nobody is saying you can't be ready or treat potential suspects with caution...nevertheless, pointing a rifle a every person that passes through your checkpoint isn't going to win the hearts and minds of the community you swore to protect.

This isn't Afghanistan where every citizen is a potential terrorist. So if you signed up to be a cop so you can play soldier on the streets of LA, treating every traffic stop like a gun battle, then I'm glad you're retired.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Great points! One of the first things that always gets cut due to budget constraints is the single largest cause of liability- training. A lack of training has led to many a substantial payout....

You know, one of the things that gets me about incidents like this, is the police are becoming more and more heavily armed with cooler and more capable toys (militarization), the problem is, there is ZERO training to back any of this up. Cops are expected to qualify with their service weapon ONCE EVERY 6 MONTHS!*#$!)(*$@! And this is to say nothing of the actual qualification protocols used by departments.

The real problem is, just what it sounds like... police that are becoming very heavily armed, and yet are not given sufficient training or held to high enough training standards to actually imply they are capable, qualified or safe with the weapons they have. Cops pointing guns at people who really don't deserve it isn't really the problem, it's just the glaring, massive symptom of what the real problems are: insufficient training and poor standards.

 

[Kid@Heart]

Sorry, I'm sick of seeing the references to the Dorner related incidents. Dorner was actively driving around looking for cops, and taking shots at them when he found them. Some were wounded and at least one was killed while he did so. If this situation I have seen pictured is accurately described in the accompanying article, there is nothing wrong with the officer's actions, especially since he maintained an indexed trigger finger.

Interesting...

One of the "Dorner Related Incidents" that you so defend was almost identical to this one. Law Enforcement had Dorner pinned down in a cabin in Big Bear.
Surrounded.
Cabin on fire.
SWAT teams.
Armored Vehicles.

All well deserved treatment for a serial killer...

However, miles away from the scene the Law Enforcement Agencies had road blocks set up and were stopping and searching vehicles without a warrant, at gun point.

There is EVERYTHING wrong with the officer's actions in this picture. HE HAS NO RIGHT to point a loaded gun at some random citizen just because a crime is being committed a couple of blocks away. He should be disciplined. Folks are making fun of the guy in the background, but he is at least pointing his gun in a safe direction.

 

[Stomper]

Interesting...

Folks are making fun of the guy in the background, but he is at least pointing his gun in a safe direction.

That's because he was momentarily distracted by a doughnut wrapped in bacon.

 

[USMC1911]

Great points! One of the first things that always gets cut due to budget constraints is the single largest cause of liability- training. A lack of training has led to many a substantial payout....

Lack of training? Really? Lack of a brain and a mentality of superiority. No more then a bully in blue.

 

[simon99]

I have to say that California LEO's are probably the worst trained and disciplined police force in the country. I have yet to meet one that has served there in the last decade that isn't a trigger happy Rambo wannabe. For example, a few years back, I had family on the Central California Coast. Some dairy cows had gotten out of a field and near a small road. Instead of corralling them or getting some extra help to round them up, they made a command decision, pulled out their service weapons and shot them all....like a dozen or so.
Yep, that's what I call police integrity. I doubt that would go over very well in Burns or K . Falls Oregon......

 

[SKN]

Officer, get that weapon out of my face and get your supervisor here, NOW!

Exactly the right response. That pic is a record of a single behavior with no indication that "every motorist (signed up to be) treated as a perp". If the contact involved a elderly couple, a lone woman, a group of teens it would be egregious and outrageous, but as it applies to that pic of that single contact, with the officer having whatever description and information that was available at the time, my opinion (and I'm allowed just as you are) is his conduct was reasonable under the circumstances or facts as he knew then or as we know now.

 

[SKN]

But there in lies the rub...did every motorist sign up to be treated like a perp and have a loaded firearm pointed at them? Nobody is saying you can't be ready or treat potential suspects with caution...nevertheless, pointing a rifle a every person that passes through your checkpoint isn't going to win the hearts and minds of the community you swore to protect.

This isn't Afghanistan where every citizen is a potential terrorist. So if you signed up to be a cop so you can play soldier on the streets of LA, treating every traffic stop like a gun battle, then I'm glad you're retired.

If you're referring to me I wasn't in LA though I have many life long LE friends there but I wholeheartedly am glad I was able to retire. OBTW I didn't become a LEO to be a troop because I did my hearts and minds tour as a 11-Boonie '69-'70. And after 9/11 if I'd been 20 years younger and without a 2 year old daughter and a son on the way, I would have re-upped. These days I'm regularly mistaken for their grandpa.

 

[SKN]

I have to say that California LEO's are probably the worst trained and disciplined police force in the country. I have yet to meet one that has served there in the last decade that isn't a trigger happy Rambo wannabe. For example, a few years back, I had family on the Central California Coast. Some dairy cows had gotten out of a field and near a small road. Instead of corralling them or getting some extra help to round them up, they made a command decision, pulled out their service weapons and shot them all....like a dozen or so.
Yep, that's what I call police integrity. I doubt that would go over very well in Burns or K . Falls Oregon......

Sorry, I have to disagree with your generalization based on 'meeting' any. Do the work and you'll get a clearer impression.

 

[simon99]

Sorry, I have to disagree with your generalization based on 'meeting' any. Do the work and you'll get a clearer impression.

Uh...actually I have.....thank you.
My impression ( both as a civilian, and in the military) that most lack training and have poor discipline stands. Sorry if I offended you, there probably are some great officers, but I'm talking about the law of averages and California is a very deep pool.

 

[Brutus57]

Uh, unless I'm doing something completely idiotic, anyone that points a weapon at me is going to have a very big problem.

How so? These bubblegummers are looking for a twitch and they'll shoot. Are you Wyatt Earp fast?

Brutus out

 

[SKN]

If you'd worked for my dad when he was a chief you would have been told exactly that. The risk is part of the job, and you can't reduce it by cutting corners when it comes to how you treat citizens. You live with the risk or you find a less exciting job.

Not sure what era your Dad was a LEO, me: mid 70's to late 90's, or what jurisdictions he worked, me: metro urban my whole career. But in that time the working environment for LEOs in my area changed drastically. Although the quantity of street violence fell, the quality of it increased: RG .22s and .38s, and SW .32s were replaced by larger caliber and/or higher capacity handguns; drive-bys with long guns and fully automatic weapons motivated by fights over drug turf, and HIDTA hot spots protected not only by shooters on the ground but high ground 'marksman', and I use that term very loosely. Not to mention the exposure of working officers to AIDS/HIV, Hepatitis, TB: me, me, me, rounds fired from elevated positions, and from a darkened street corner: me, me. Then the somewhat lesser threats: bricks, bottles, rocks, knives, flying turkeys, perpetrators who were 20 years younger, 2 inches taller and 20 lbs more muscle from prison workout regimens. Then there were the BGF, BLA, NWLF, SLA, and street affiliates of the EME and La Familia prison gangs. Can I get an "Awww, well TS"? All risks I was willing to accept because at least, we had the support of many in the community I worked.

Today, not so much. Even among 2A supporters of whom I count myself. When a discussion like this turns to, what appears to me to be, "cop bashing": donut references, personal appearance criticisms, suggestions veiled and not so veiled of counter actions then all I can offer is try doing the work. How you do it and your experience in it could be completely different than what mine was. You're all entitled to your opinions as am I, without having to resort to ad hominem rhetoric.

 

[simon99]

How so? These bubblegummers are looking for a twitch and they'll shoot. Are you Wyatt Earp fast?

Brutus out

As a driver, cruising down the highway, you have a choice to continue towards a Gestapo-like roadblock or pull a U-turn. I would rather find another route than have an AR jammed in my or my wife's face.

 

[simon99]

Not sure what era your Dad was a LEO, me: mid 70's to late 90's, or what jurisdictions he worked, me: metro urban my whole career. But in that time the working environment for LEOs in my area changed drastically. Although the quantity of street violence fell, the quality of it increased: RG .22s and .38s, and SW .32s were replaced by larger caliber and/or higher capacity handguns; drive-bys with long guns and fully automatic weapons motivated by fights over drug turf, and HIDTA hot spots protected not only by shooters on the ground but high ground 'marksman', and I use that term very loosely. Not to mention the exposure of working officers to AIDS/HIV, Hepatitis, TB: me, me, me, rounds fired from elevated positions, and from a darkened street corner: me, me. Then the somewhat lesser threats: bricks, bottles, rocks, knives, flying turkeys, perpetrators who were 20 years younger, 2 inches taller and 20 lbs more muscle from prison workout regimens. Can I get an 'Awww, well TS"? All risks I was willing to accept because at least, we had the support of many in the community I worked.

Today, not so much. Even among 2A supporters of whom I count myself. When a discussion like this turns to, what appears to me to be, "cop bashing": donut references, personal appearance criticisms, suggestions veiled and not so veiled of counter actions then all I can offer is try doing the work. How you do it and your experience in it could be completely different than what mine was. You're all entitled to your opinions as am I, without having to resort to ad hominem rhetoric.

Hi SKN,

I apologize if I came off as anti-LEO ( which I'm certainly not). I have several friends and family that are active or retired LEO's from all over the country and I realize they have an incredibly difficult job to perform depending on their region. My best friend, who is a deputy once said, " smile at everyone, be friendly, be helpful and be prepared to shoot them" ....It might sound harsh, but as a combat Marine, I get it.
The issue I have with it is this, a well trained officer, in any jurisdiction is going to have intel on their subject. Vehicle, appearance, tall or short, race, whatever.....There is no need, zero, for an officer of the law to randomly point a service rifle at someone in their car unless they are suspicious, a threat or that fits the description.

 

[U201491]

Hi SKN,

I apologize if I came off as anti-LEO ( which I'm certainly not). I have several friends and family that are active or retired LEO's from all over the country and I realize they have an incredibly difficult job to perform depending on their region. My best friend, who is a deputy once said, " smile at everyone, be friendly, be helpful and be prepared to shoot them" ....It might sound harsh, but as a combat Marine, I get it.
The issue I have with it is this, a well trained officer, in any jurisdiction is going to have intel on their subject. Vehicle, appearance, tall or short, race, whatever.....There is no need, zero, for an officer of the law to randomly point a service rifle at someone in their car unless they are suspicious, a threat or that fits the description.

 

[oknow]

As a driver, cruising down the highway, you have a choice to continue towards a Gestapo-like roadblock or pull a U-turn. I would rather find another route than have an AR jammed in my or my wife's face.

The bad part about doing a U-turn is they think you got something to hide and they come run you down any way.

 

[chariot13]

Nightrawler wrote: Sorry, I'm sick of seeing the references to the Dorner related incidents.

Things that make you go hmmm

 

[Kid@Heart]

Exactly the right response. That pic is a record of a single behavior with no indication that "every motorist (signed up to be) treated as a perp". If the contact involved a elderly couple, a lone woman, a group of teens it would be egregious and outrageous, but as it applies to that pic of that single contact, with the officer having whatever description and information that was available at the time, my opinion (and I'm allowed just as you are) is his conduct was reasonable under the circumstances or facts as he knew then or as we know now.

Why, oh why does it have to be an elderly couple, a lone woman or a group of teens for this to be egregious? The guy in the picture looks like John Q. Public. The police have him surrounded, he has his hands up on the steering wheel where they can see them and he appears calm. I would like to know why he is staring into the business end of an M4.

 

[RB87]

Sorry, I'm sick of seeing the references to the Dorner related incidents. Dorner was actively driving around looking for cops, and taking shots at them when he found them. Some were wounded and at least one was killed while he did so. If this situation I have seen pictured is accurately described in the accompanying article, there is nothing wrong with the officer's actions, especially since he maintained an indexed trigger finger.

Ok, how about this one then:

Google Image Result for http://sfcmac.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/aurora-colorado-cop-threatens-child.jpg%3Fw%3D570

 

[Sgt Nambu]

Uh, unless I'm doing something completely idiotic, anyone that points a weapon at me is going to have a very big problem.

I hope from your lawyer, man! These idiots will really shoot you dead! Probably with about 11 or 12 bystanders!