Bug out bag weight, do you include a tent and sleeping bag?

[AMProducts]

Regarding the question of including tent or sleeping bag.

Simple rule: If you are considering carrying it. You have to include it in the weight for your BOB. I also don't believe in "bugging out" for 99% of situations. The I5 corridor is the most densely populated area of Washington. <snip>

One of the things that really irks me about a lot of "prepping" is that people put kits together that are never used.

For me the bug out kit, is every weekend. Got a day or two to get away? Bug out. Gotta travel for work? Bug out!

Speaking of which, supposed to have some weather this weekend so i need to throw my rainsuit back in.

 

[Argonaut]

I didn't know there was a battery factory in Weiser. Thermal optics are pretty expensive to keep fed with juice, and have limited range, and still depend on direct line of sight. Far-IR doesn't travel through insulating materials, like plastic or glass. You may see the heat once it's soaked through, but you'll just see a blob, and much of this depends on the temperature gradient between the materials. At the same time, the cooling and image processing circuitry is giving off a lot of RF driver noise. In the mean time, you're going to be chasing heat signatures all over the valley, and chances are good the light from the eyepiece will be seen by someone using a NVD.

We live in the scary distopian future, where you can be bombed by $300 chinese drones, good night vision is cheap, and crappy night vision is even cheaper, digital signal processing is fast and cheap and is everywhere.

For every technology there's a limitation, and where there's a limitation there's a counter. Sure, thermal is good for picking out the targets, but it doesn't tell you a lot about what's between you and the target, or what the specifics of the target are. Even then, the current crop of even pretty good thermal has resolution limitations.

Probably the worst thing you can do is get over-confident in your technical superiority. Despite a rotating band of 250k soldiers and 16 years there's still a taliban.

We have over a 500 KW electrical production capacity with diesel generators and enough fuel to operate at least 60 days. I can power most of the road we live on.....we power our own wells and produce so much of our own food to feed the 8 or so families that live on our road. Every rural resident can do it.......I am an industrial kind of guy so am a little more prepared than some. What are you going to do living in a condo?

 

[AMProducts]

We have over a 500 KW electrical production capacity with diesel generators and enough fuel to operate at least 60 days. I can power most of the road we live on.....we power our own wells and produce so much of our own food to feed the 8 or so families that live on our road. Every rural resident can do it.......I am an industrial kind of guy so am a little more prepared than some. What are you going to do living in a condo?

So you guys have over 15,000-52,000 gallons of diesel stocked? (1/4-full load) That's a daily requirement for resupply of 850+ gal of diesel at full load. That's up to 5 giant skids full of fuel, more than enough to be seen from google aerial view. Gotta admit, that's pretty darned impressive.

That said, just because someone is on the move doesn't mean they're a raider, or don't have somewhere to be.

 

[Certaindeaf]

One of the things that really irks me about a lot of "prepping" is that people put kits together that are never used.

For me the bug out kit, is every weekend. Got a day or two to get away? Bug out. Gotta travel for work? Bug out!

Speaking of which, supposed to have some weather this weekend so i need to throw my rainsuit back in.

Or "relying" on a piece of unproven to you kit. Many people don't even take their precious out of the packaging to see if it matches what's on the box, let alone see if it functions properly.

 

[AMProducts]

Or "relying" on a piece of unproven to you kit. Many people don't even take their precious out of the packaging to see if it matches what's on the box, let alone see if it functions properly.

I remember one time years ago in scouts... someone bought a tent, brought it camping, and went to set it up the first time and realized it didn't have any poles.

 

[American123]

Or "relying" on a piece of unproven to you kit. Many people don't even take their precious out of the packaging to see if it matches what's on the box, let alone see if it functions properly.

Or have "awesome amazing equipment" that they have never practiced with before and are just going to "wing it" in possibly the most stressful time of their life.

How about the people who think, "I'll just grow food" there's a bit more to growing food than just sticking a seed in the ground. Not to mention, it takes 60-90 days for most edibles anyway.

 

[Argonaut]

So you guys have over 15,000-52,000 gallons of diesel stocked? (1/4-full load) That's a daily requirement for resupply of 850+ gal of diesel at full load. That's up to 5 giant skids full of fuel, more than enough to be seen from google aerial view. Gotta admit, that's pretty darned impressive.

That said, just because someone is on the move doesn't mean they're a raider, or don't have somewhere to be.

Yep......your figures are a bit off. I own large tug boats......the burn isn't anywhere near that. And we have some small diesel sets so don't need to run the big ones much......you are smart by 1/2...... do you even know what an EMD or a Cleveland is? My 7 KW diesels can be hand started and burn about 1/3 of a gallon an hr........will run most homes at least 90% of the time. My big generatorhere at the ranch has twin 6-71's and produces 500KW 2 100% duty cycle. It can be run on a single engine for less power and fuel burn.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Or have "awesome amazing equipment" that they have never practiced with before and are just going to "wing it" in possibly the most stressful time of their life.

How about the people who think, "I'll just grow food" there's a bit more to growing food than just sticking a seed in the ground. Not to mention, it takes 60-90 days for most edibles anyway.

Or putting a gee willikers scope on anything, never taking a shot, and they are automatically a sniper.. and don't get lippy about it on the internet. lol

 

[American123]

One of the things that really irks me about a lot of "prepping" is that people put kits together that are never used.

For me the bug out kit, is every weekend. Got a day or two to get away? Bug out. Gotta travel for work? Bug out!

Speaking of which, supposed to have some weather this weekend so i need to throw my rainsuit back in.

I kind of do a similar thing, but it sounds like I exchange items a lot less frequently than you. I just keep a backpack in my car with some toiletries, a change of clothes that includes wool socks, cotton socks, underwear, tennis shoes, jeans, shorts, t shirt, sweatshirt, baseball hat and stocking cap. In the warmer months it has a light rain jacket in it. In the cooler months it has an insulated winter jacket in it. A lighter with some light tinder and some earplugs. Car always has water and some food in it so I'm covered there on the short term.

I use it all the time for the changes of clothes. If I end up going somewhere and decide to spend the night I already have everything I need to be fresh.

 

[AMProducts]

Yep......your figures are a bit off. I own large tug boats......the burn isn't anywhere near that. And we have some small diesel sets so don't need to run the big ones much......you are smart by 1/2...... do you even know what an EMD or a Cleveland is? My 7 KW diesels can be hand started and burn about 1/3 of a gallon an hr........will run most homes at least 90% of the time. My big generatorhere at the ranch has twin 6-71's and produces 500KW 2 100% duty cycle. It can be run on a single engine for less power and fuel burn.

I generally don't do diesel, mostly because I don't have need for that quantity of it, and vehicles that burn diesel are more expensive than their gasoline equivalents. Same thing goes for generators. However if you have a big need for a lot of marine or farm diesel (most people don't) then it makes sense to use it.

The major problem with your setup as you describe, is you can't centralize the power unless your gensets are designed to sync phase with one another. This is generally less an issue with solar systems that are either DC with an AC inverter, or micro-inverter systems that automatically sync to the line phase, provided you're providing them with a sufficiently low-impedence 60hz.

As for fuel consumption, you said 500kw, there are burn charts for fuel consumption. That was my source.

At the moment, I'm running about 40kw of solar, which depending on season is between 1.5 and 2x the amount of power I draw. Given that I use electricity like the rats of nimh this is pretty good. It is a grid tied system, but has 1600Ah of 48vdc backup with a 4kw sine-wave inverter. This, provided the load isn't too high, is plenty to keep the micro-inverters on the solar panels producing. Two of the panels (600w) are direct DC to the batteries. If the batteries are deep cycled sufficiently, there may not be enough power to re-start the inverter and get the micro-inverters to work, so worst case, a few days of no power and the system should be able to reset itself.

I kind of do a similar thing, but it sounds like I exchange items a lot less frequently than you. I just keep a backpack in my car with some toiletries, a change of clothes that includes wool socks, cotton socks, underwear, tennis shoes, jeans, shorts, t shirt, sweatshirt, baseball hat and stocking cap. In the warmer months it has a light rain jacket in it. In the cooler months it has an insulated winter jacket in it. A lighter with some light tinder and some earplugs. Car always has water and some food in it so I'm covered there on the short term.

I use it all the time for the changes of clothes. If I end up going somewhere and decide to spend the night I already have everything I need to be fresh.

I find generally that I don't need fresh pants every day, however clean underwear and a clean shirt really make me feel better (especially if I had a long smelly day the previous day), in most cases, I can stretch a pair of socks to 2 days, provided I got out of them for a few hours and let them dry out.

My "bob" is all the crap I need to keep myself going: Food, shelter, sleep, water. In winter I augment my sleep stuff with a fleece hood, gloves, and some fleece booties, but I consider this an add-on to my sleep system, even if I can wear it for other occasions. I do have an "add-on" bag, that has extra clothes, but I don't really consider this part of my bob because if it was really time to GTFO it's a lot of weight that may or may-not be useful. Even then, depending on where I'm going, I'm no more than a 8 day walk (worst case, more often a 3-4 day walk) from a friend or family member's place where I stashed a cache box, and maybe a place where I have a cabin.

 

[Argonaut]

The thumbnail is 1/3 of a lb of diesel per hp per hr. It takes roughly 2 hp to make 1 KW. Diesel weighs approx 6 lb per gallon..........the books have different numbers but these work in practical use. Some Diesel engines are a little more efficient some a little less......not a big difference between high and low. The best economy comes with a system properly engineered for the job it is doing. I am not a huge fan of solar, it is very complicated. If I was going to do solar, I would set as much as I could up to run D.C. So there would be no inverters required. They take a huge amount of energy to operate and are frequently the weak spot in the system. I have built several solar systems for friends and customers. For practical use, we always use a diesel backup generator. Solar works best for light application demands. They faulter when trying to run things like well pumps and electric heaters. We use some solar on the boats to maintain our batteries and it works well there but so does a wind generator.

 

[AMProducts]

The thumbnail is 1/3 of a lb of diesel per hp per hr. It takes roughly 2 hp to make 1 KW. Diesel weighs approx 6 lb per gallon..........the books have different numbers but these work in practical use. Some Diesel engines are a little more efficient some a little less......not a big difference between high and low. The best economy comes with a system properly engineered for the job it is doing. I am not a huge fan of solar, it is very complicated. If I was going to do solar, I would set as much as I could up to run D.C. So there would be no inverters required. They take a huge amount of energy to operate and are frequently the weak spot in the system. I have built several solar systems for friends and customers. For practical use, we always use a diesel backup generator. Solar works best for light application demands. They faulter when trying to run things like well pumps and electric heaters. We use some solar on the boats to maintain our batteries and it works well there but so does a wind generator.

It really depends what your comfort level is, I design electrical systems as part of my business and have a really good handle on both how these systems are designed, and how well they work in practice. DC-AC inversion systems are not new, but that's not to say they're not complex, and the more efficient they are the more complex they get. Most of the current systems are SCR and digitally controlled, but beyond that are fairly straight-forward. The real advantage to most of these systems is it makes phase syncing trivial to implement. The major downside to DC-only solar is the voltage/amperage curves you have to deal with. When you start pulling too heavy on a DC system the voltage drops, when you start pulling too heavy on an AC system the phase frequency drops much faster than voltage. In the case of large reactive loads like say a well pump, a pure sinusoidal inverter will do a much better job of getting through the start-up (where the motor is drawing the most current as it gets up to speed and the current drops off as the torque requirements drop).

If you're dealing with DC-DC loads, you can kinda cheat this process by shortening the feedlines, or putting storage very close to the load (supercaps are a great way to do this), but over-all the amount of current drawn by these devices running at lower voltages will result in greatly less efficiency. You can also run them at higher voltage, however once you get above about 42V things can get pretty dangerous as arcs tend not to self extinguish as they do with AC systems, and things can get pretty bad pretty quick unless you have good circuit protection.

The main advantage to solar is two fold: It's quiet, it's low TCO. The downsides: Size, and Installation Cost.

 

[Certaindeaf]

This guy is pretty awesome. Pretty off-grid and self sufficient..

Mladen 365

 

[Argonaut]

It really depends what your comfort level is, I design electrical systems as part of my business and have a really good handle on both how these systems are designed, and how well they work in practice. DC-AC inversion systems are not new, but that's not to say they're not complex, and the more efficient they are the more complex they get. Most of the current systems are SCR and digitally controlled, but beyond that are fairly straight-forward. The real advantage to most of these systems is it makes phase syncing trivial to implement. The major downside to DC-only solar is the voltage/amperage curves you have to deal with. When you start pulling too heavy on a DC system the voltage drops, when you start pulling too heavy on an AC system the phase frequency drops much faster than voltage. In the case of large reactive loads like say a well pump, a pure sinusoidal inverter will do a much better job of getting through the start-up (where the motor is drawing the most current as it gets up to speed and the current drops off as the torque requirements drop).

If you're dealing with DC-DC loads, you can kinda cheat this process by shortening the feedlines, or putting storage very close to the load (supercaps are a great way to do this), but over-all the amount of current drawn by these devices running at lower voltages will result in greatly less efficiency. You can also run them at higher voltage, however once you get above about 42V things can get pretty dangerous as arcs tend not to self extinguish as they do with AC systems, and things can get pretty bad pretty quick unless you have good circuit protection.

The main advantage to solar is two fold: It's quiet, it's low TCO. The downsides: Size, and Installation Cost.

We have lots of straight D.C. Equipment on our older boats....pre-hydraulic they are great. Straight forward to reverse with a simple control. One of my tugs had a 2,000 HP Diesel Electric propulsion system. It was wonderful and smooth to operate but the antique switch gear took a full time maintenance guy to keep it working. Everything went through points, started with a small bank and progressed through a huge bank nessisary to transmit that much power. It was a work of art built when transmissions were at a premium because of the machine time required to build them. We are a ways off topic but the conversation is good....maby some people can learn a bit from a couple of old guys......we don't like gas for several reasons, it does not contain as much energy as the equivalent diesel, it stores poorley over time, is close to being explosive when vaporized, there are very few truly industrial grade gasoline engines built today. Most are converted lawn mower engines with a short life expectancy. I have a 2-71 Detroit in one of my tugs that has over 25,000 hrs and has never been touched. I have bought and sold generators (and equipment) for 30 years....since learning about them in my marine work........

 

[AMProducts]

We have lots of straight D.C. Equipment on our older boats....pre-hydraulic they are great. Straight forward to reverse with a simple control. One of my tugs had a 2,000 HP Diesel Electric propulsion system. It was wonderful and smooth to operate but the antique switch gear took a full time maintenance guy to keep it working. Everything went through points, started with a small bank and progressed through a huge bank nessisary to transmit that much power. It was a work of art built when transmissions were at a premium because of the machine time required to build them. We are a ways off topic but the conversation is good....maby some people can learn a bit from a couple of old guys......we don't like gas for several reasons, it does not contain as much energy as the equivalent diesel, it stores poorley over time, is close to being explosive when vaporized, there are very few truly industrial grade gasoline engines built today. Most are converted lawn mower engines with a short life expectancy. I have a 2-71 Detroit in one of my tugs that has over 25,000 hrs and has never been touched. I have bought and sold generators (and equipment) for 30 years....since learning about them in my marine work........

Diesel is always the hands down winner as far as energy density, and for marine use it can't be beat (gasoline absorbs water also, and this is even worse with the new alcohol blends). The biggest issue with most small engines these days is heat, lubrication, and alcohol in the fuel. When not burned completely the alcohol tends to create acetic acid, and if methanol is used it is itself corrosive to the components in the float bowls of older engines that were not designed for it. AC power generation with older gensets was also problematic, as most ended up being designed to run the engine at a constant 3600RPM which causes heat problems at higher loads.

I have a small B&S 5-HP engine that I've converted to "multi-use" it's designed for CHP camp power, that is, when hooked up, it generates 12VDC via a GM 90A alternator, and a multi-power output using a hacked BLDC washing machine motor. (I can control the connections to it, and synthesize a 120V 60hz, or 50hz output from this) There are then copper cooling coils that run through the oil, and a secondary loop that runs through the engine head, and another that has a heat exchanger for the exhaust. This system when running for about 4-hours will give a combined output of about 1.5-2.5kw electrical, and will take 35-55gal of water from ambient to about 105F, which is perfect for doing dishes and showering. Fuel consumption is about 4-8oz/hr. I generally run the engine RPMs fairly low, and the output shaft has a large-ish flywheel on it which is connected to the outputs (alternator and BLDC).

For most camp use, it's more power than you know what to do with, and more often than not, it runs longer than is necessary just to make more hot water so everyone can get in a good shower. But it will top up the batteries and keep all the camp lighting running (LED strips and spots mostly), and with the modifications to the exhaust system and low engine RPM it's pretty darned quiet, you can barely hear it over the noise of the gas stove, and certainly can't hear it if someone has a radio going.

 

[CoastRange57]

Yep......your figures are a bit off. I own large tug boats......the burn isn't anywhere near that. And we have some small diesel sets so don't need to run the big ones much......you are smart by 1/2...... do you even know what an EMD or a Cleveland is? My 7 KW diesels can be hand started and burn about 1/3 of a gallon an hr........will run most homes at least 90% of the time. My big generatorhere at the ranch has twin 6-71's and produces 500KW 2 100% duty cycle. It can be run on a single engine for less power and fuel burn.

Help me understand here..these tug boats are diesel electric ? And that is how you achieve that lower burn rate with suitable horsepower for the work? Those burn rates just do not compute for the types of work I used to do.

An 850 gallon a day burn rate is nothing in a logging or construction business, but those are direct combustion drive engines, so if you look at work to input ratios those tugs are pretty damn efficient versus the millions of gallons of diesel I put through all kinds of construction and logging equipment moving a lot less weight.

The 6 pound per gallon figure on diesel seems light. I hauled millions of gallons of that in tank truck and trailers and we always used 7.1 pounds per gallon. Now the boss wanted us cramming as much payload on as we could, and we even caluculated how much we could be overweight, and burn off enough enough fuel to be right at GVW by the first scale, unless of course the truck cops picked on us first.

The 6 pound rate is closer to the 6.6 lbs per gallon that is used in jet fuel calculations, the Jet A being refined more than diesel.

 

[Member 3687]

Wow after reading all these post I am brain fried as the topic bounced all over the map.

But it in my mind it comes down to if you want a tent then carry one if not, so be it but like others have said and I asked in my first post, what is your plan and what are you planning for? The plan will make all the difference as to what gear is really needed.

My plan is to get home so I have basic gear to do this but in reality unless it's an EMP talking out my rig and all the power in my area it will not be on foot. It is more to survive a 3 day storm if I am stuck in a ditch during a blizzard.

In an economic collapse you will have a few days if not months to pack up to go to where ever so always keep a full tank of gas or a extra 5 gallons on hand just in case cash is worthless and banks are closed.

In a Red dawn you fight the best you can and retreat as you must and packing all that gear will not be on your mind.

I have read a lot of stories about Katrina and even then if you know a storm is coming, you leave before it hits, not during or after. So you pack the car and go the day before the storm and the rush not during. Yes you can pack a tent in your car with what ever else you might need for short to long term survival.

Its call planning, you plan for disasters. I have a brief case with copies of my documents like marriage license, diplomas, deed's and 200 cash so if there is a forest fire coming my way I can grab it and a few other things and go. I plan for a 15 to 20 minuet load time and I am gone. The real copies are in a safe in a bank in town that I may not be able to get to for a while depending on the disaster or ever if bombed.

My problem with this post is if you are going (bugging out) to just go you are already screwed and a tent will not matter.

I live in the woods and I have a winters worth of fire wood on hand for emergencies, oil lamps for light and over 300 pounds of beans and 400 pounds of rice as well as other supplies to get me through the first growing season where I hope to be able to grow enough food to make it through the next winter.

Everybody thinks they will just hunt for food but I hate to tell you but in order for a deer to get to my place (and I get them all the time) it will have to cross a lot of other folks property (who will be also hungry) safely before I can shoot it (odds are not in my favor).

I have read stories about the depression where in the cities pigeon was on the main shopping list of most homeless as well as robin and any rodent they could find. Dogs and cats were on the list as well and that was during a time when folks fended for themselves much more than now.

Sorry for the rant but even in the military we could not go to long in the field without resupply and you do not have the option of an air drop or reinforcements showing up to help.

So what is the plan that a tent is needed or required while you are on foot in a bad situation? If you can answer this honestly and you feel it is needed then get the best and lightest weight you can, learn how to use it and keep it in good shape so it is in the ready for when it is needed.

Just remember they are designed to be used for short periods of time as in a week here or there not for long term living like say a year straight.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Yep, everybody dies. It doesn't matter if you are an actual king or have a nice house and some beans and some wood or whatever. And more particularly, everyone will die without shelter in the cold and wet very quickly. Water conducts heat away from the body, what.. forty times faster than dry?
Guess what little old crappy tents do?. keep you dry. lool
We hear again and again here, "I don't plan on bugging out!". Well, you're going to get pancaked in that landslide or cindered in that fire or washed away in that flood (the list is endless) if you stay put and decide on the coward's way out.
If your precious little world is erased by some force you have no control over, then is not the time to discover you are not magic and the cold and wet won't curb stomp you the way it always does.. naturally.. pun intended

 

[Member 3687]

I do not plan on bugging out but I do have a plan if I have too. In my case my house is the BOL for I and a number of family members (security in numbers) so that is plan A now plan B is if the SHTF is so bad we head to a secondary location that is way off the grid and not as well stocked but is more a rally point to assess the situation.

I have no problem with folks bugging out if you have at least a basic plan but like some have suggested if you are wondering around in a SHTF as far as I am concerned you are a threat especially if you are in my area as I am off the main roads and out of the main routes.

If you are heading to the woods like some have also said so are thousands of others so that favorite camping spot may all ready be a tent city pushing you higher in the mountains where there is less water/food and harsher weather.

I have lived in my place for 26 years I know all the routes to my place where water is what houses are friends and what are foe. If I have to walk home the 30 miles from work I know 3 routes where there are empty sheds on abandon properties, for short term shelter I know of several culverts under old railroad tracks that could be shelter for the night as well.

It's called planning and most do not do it. Just having a gun does not make you a good shot or trained so having all the gear to bug out will not guarantee you will survive without some pre planning.

I have a buddy who is into it so much that he has several stash locations with food and survival supplies so if he bails he has stuff in rout. This is planning.

Most folks do not even walk their neighbor hood much less have multiple routs out of the city to the woods and know where sources of water might be if the power is down and the facets do not work. Simple things like the locations of fountains or swimming pools (water sources) on your routs might keep you alive longer than a tent or any other gear in your kit.

To me it comes down to what SHTF you are planning for then plan for it. If it means you have to bail then have someplace to go and know your routs and possible in rout food and water sources in both winter and summer.

If a tent is in the plan then go for it is your call, your life and your plan.

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

Some good rope and a quality tarp or two. I've never seen a commercially available tent last very long...no matter the price tag.