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Wouldn't put it past 'em. Why do you think those chuckleheads in Congress keep floating bills to retain 4473s indefinitely?
Thought I saw a bill from some imbecile to allow feds/"police" to cull through FFL records even without evidence of a crime having been committed.
Anti-2A data mining, essentially...
I understand with 4473s. I don't know how long the ATF requires a FFL to keep records of sales for things as trivial as accessories. I'm sure there is something in there that gives them a backdoor but....if the records of sale were never kept? If a FFL sells pens and bubblegum at the counter, do they have to keep record of that transaction?
 
That's a machine gun. Folks who think machine guns should be legal should lobby for that legislation. In the meantime, these guys aren't kidding anyone.

Getting laws overturned related to NFA is pretty much useless. Just look at how the public's perception of "silencers/suppressors" has changed over recent years but still they remain NFA controlled. But if rules are rules, then the ATF doesn't get to change them at will. We played by the rules, they just don't like the result. They've overstepped their authority to change laws by using this Chevron deference. The problem is someone has got to put up the fight to end the ATFs abuse of their powers. That's why this guy clearly baited them legally and hopefully he'll have them tied up for quite awhile.
 
That's a machine gun. Folks who think machine guns should be legal should lobby for that legislation. In the meantime, these guys aren't kidding anyone.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Straight fron the ATF website :rolleyes: emphasis added.

Firearms Verification

National Firearms Act Definitions

Machinegun

26 U.S.C. § 5845(b)

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act the term Machinegun means:

  • Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger
  • The frame or receiver of any such weapon
  • Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, or
  • Any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
 
By the letter of the law, the FRT-15 's cycle is a single function, and if you hold the trigger and not allow it to reset, it will fire only one shot.
Yes! it's really well explained in the rare breed video if anyone hasn't seen it yet. 4 former atf experts all say it is not a machine gun because it meets this single function definition. Sounds like one of those 4 experts literally wrote the book and trained atf current staff on how to tell if it's a machine gun or not.

Also he didn't say it but I noted that one of the 4 experts (Richard Vasquez) was the one who corrected the previously incorrect ruling where a shoestring was a machine gun. Good job Mr. Vasquez!

E57D1FAF-5C49-400D-A010-6268F697C091.jpeg
 
Incorrect, the shoestring was not a machine gun. And since Velcro shoes probably weren't in use at that time, technically if it was correct anyone with shoelaces potentially possessed a machine gun. The Vasquez letter straightens it out (thank goodness).
 
Incorrect, the shoestring was not a machine gun. And since Velcro shoes probably weren't in use at that time, technically if it was correct anyone with shoelaces potentially possessed a machine gun. The Vasquez letter straightens it out (thank goodness).
All the Vasquez letter did was state that the shoelace itself was not the MG but when used as a trigger part was a MG.
 
All the Vasquez letter did was state that the shoelace itself was not the MG but when used as a trigger part was a MG.
Correct. And that is a HUGE distinction. Vasquez letter says the firearm is a machine gun, not the shoelace by itself. Thus possessing the shoelace can't be considered a felony.

I can see it now, "Little Timmy, time to go to school, tie your shoelaces and don't forget to bring your atf stamp with you". :p
 
Correct. And that is a HUGE distinction. Vasquez letter says the firearm is a machine gun, not the shoelace by itself. Thus possessing the shoelace can't be considered a felony.

I can see it now, "Little Timmy, time to go to school, tie your shoelaces and don't forget to bring your atf stamp with you". :p
The only thing consistent about ATF letters is their inconsistency. Dias are not firearms yet they are machine guns, M2 carbine receivers are identical to m1 receivers in every way except a stamped in number.
 
The only thing consistent about ATF letters is their inconsistency. Dias are not firearms yet they are machine guns, M2 carbine receivers are identical to m1 receivers in every way except a stamped in number.
Yep I agree atf has lots of guys making arbitrary calls on things with no checks and balances. That's why the frt trigger thing is so encouraging because it takes them to task when they violate their own definitions. Actually this same thing happens in many federal agencies I have worked with where individuals sort of "go rogue". Lawsuits are the only thing that make them change from what I have seen especially when they know they are in the wrong on something. They tend to double down so they don't look like they made a mistake instead of owning up to it and correcting it and moving on.
 
The fact that so many manufacturers are trying to bring such an item to market should give them pause.
They (AFT) could be spending their time trying to bust real criminals. But they're just an antiquity trying to remain relevant by pushing gun-grabber agendas. By the way, do they really still deal with tobacco? Seems like they should change the "T" to triggers, since they appear to waste more time there.
 
The Graves one looks like a winner. Looks like this trigger solved the timing issues with the FRT. If it's reasonable, I may add it to the stuff I've lost in my most recent boating accident.

 
Lol, love the comments, ""Next trigger should be called the "forced automat reset trigger" aka FART""
 
The fact that so many manufacturers are trying to bring such an item to market should give them pause.
They (AFT) could be spending their time trying to bust real criminals. But they're just an antiquity trying to remain relevant by pushing gun-grabber agendas. By the way, do they really still deal with tobacco? Seems like they should change the "T" to triggers, since they appear to waste more time there.
Actually the still do deal with the A and the T but really just on the tax side. The Tobacco side is regulated by the FDA these days. Seems its a poison. Who knew?
 
You're wrong. A fast rate of fire does not equal "machine gun" otherwise Jerry Miculek would have to surrender his trigger finger .
The definition of "machinegun" from the ATF site as they discussed the bump stock:


..bump stocks fall within the definition of "machinegun" under federal law, as such devices allow a shooter of a semiautomatic firearm to initiate a continuous firing cycle with a single pull of the trigger.

How does this not "allow a shooter of a semiautomatic firearm to initiate a continuous firing cycle with a single pull of the trigger?

Cheers
 
The definition of "machinegun" from the ATF site as they discussed the bump stock:


..bump stocks fall within the definition of "machinegun" under federal law, as such devices allow a shooter of a semiautomatic firearm to initiate a continuous firing cycle with a single pull of the trigger.

How does this not "allow a shooter of a semiautomatic firearm to initiate a continuous firing cycle with a single pull of the trigger?

Cheers
Courts have called B.S. on it too, including the military.
 

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