National ATF is going after FRT

[ilikegunspdx]

It's asking a lot for folks to go back through a 10-page thread to find a single post and still live their lives. Cut him some slack...

It's why I quit with the "Re-post!!" crap in the various funny memes threads last year.
Yeah, sure, it was funny at first, but then it got to be just too much work for me, and no one cared that $hit had been posted already anyway..

Yea it's weird. That was recorded sept 16 (yesterday) and video only has 24 thumbs ups and only a couple hundred views so far so it seemed pretty new to me.

 

[ColeInOregon]

It's asking a lot for folks to go back through a 10-page thread to find a single post and still live their lives. Cut him some slack...

It's why I quit with the "Re-post!!" crap in the various funny memes threads last year.
Yeah, sure, it was funny at first, but then it got to be just too much work for me, and no one cared that $hit had been posted already anyway..

It's only 2 (3 offically as of this posting) pages back, post 176, page 9. Your post is 221, page 11 its not like it was posted weeks before.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

It's only 2 (3 offically as of this posting) pages back, post 176, page 9. Your post is 221, page 11 its not like it was posted weeks before.

I think ppl are maybe confusing the two videos. The video that was said to be a repost in post #219 above (shown below in quotes), deals with court case progress and was recorded sept 16 (yesterday). I don't see any previous posting in this thread of that video but I may be wrong.

"

ilikegunspdx said:
for those who want to follow the blow-by-blow court stuff FYI:


Click to expand...

this has already been posted"

The other video, the one on post #176, deals with the wot trigger etc. and is older. I purposely reposted that video in post #218 above in response to billdeserthills question to provide an easy access answer with detailed info if desired. It was not meant to be, nor was it stated as, a post of a new video. Rather it's an answer to the posted Q.

billdeserthills said:
If that's not patent infringement, it should be--does Rare Breed have a patent?

 

[ilikegunspdx]

My main takeaways from most recent court video fwiw:

1) bunch of complete IDIOTS! called and harassed judge and his staff which does nothing but damage! I guess they think they are supposed to use same process as submitting comments to atf? Foolish!

2) sounds like court recognized that atf evaluation is flawed/inaccurate/whatever according to the rare breed guy (I would like to see actual court docs on this cuz it's one side of the story and not that I don't believe him but I would like to see what judge said on it to see specifics)

3) so rare breed will pursue giving atf a "do-over" to fix their evaluation and the next court date is over a month away

 

[wired]

According to the rare breed guy.

I'm not sure that means anything. I mean I can tell you exactly what happened in my first marriage. That doesn't mean any of it is true.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

According to the rare breed guy.

I'm not sure that means anything. I mean I can tell you exactly what happened in my first marriage. That doesn't mean any of it is true.

Yea I agree that's why it would be helpful to see court docs. For me the #1 point is did judge find that atf evaluation was flawed and should be remanded back to atf to redo it? Or does rare breed simply have the opportunity to pursue that without judge saying evaluation was flawed?

In other words what level of "doubt", for lack of a better term, does judge have re atf's evaluation?

Or this could even be a technicality in the sense the judge could have said, "if u believe atf evaluation is flawed, this is not the correct way to do it, u must ask the court for it to be remanded back to atf" or something like that. Again I'm not doubting what rare breed guy is saying only that the court docs would show the detail and not have either party's interpretation or "spin" on it. My bet is atf is saying the exact opposite and that they think they are "totally right" or whatever but that is 100% guess of course.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

I was reading the article below about that guy that atf tried to prosecute for having a brace modification (discussed in previous NWFA threads). and it seems atf used the same tactics in that one. Atf tried to suppress evidence from being shown in the trial via "in liminy". That is the same "in liminy" tactic they used against rare breed. So I wonder what the status of this in liminy thing is and how that will affect the future for them.

In the arm brace trial the jury sided with the defendant. Interesting to note that Richard Vasquez was an expert witness for the defense on that one.

ATF Prosecutes Ohio Man for AR Pistol with Brace

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has defied its own definitions, saying that adding a pistol brace to a pistol made it a short-barreled rifle.

www.range365.com

 

[rdb241]

I was reading the article below about that guy that atf tried to prosecute for having a brace modification (discussed in previous NWFA threads). and it seems atf used the same tactics in that one. Atf tried to suppress evidence from being shown in the trial via "in liminy". That is the same "in liminy" tactic they used against rare breed. So I wonder what the status of this in liminy thing is and how that will affect the future for them.

In the arm brace trial the jury sided with the defendant. Interesting to note that Richard Vasquez was an expert witness for the defense on that one.

ATF Prosecutes Ohio Man for AR Pistol with Brace

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has defied its own definitions, saying that adding a pistol brace to a pistol made it a short-barreled rifle.

www.range365.com

They have been using that tactic for at least 31 years that I konow of. It's a very long story but I was good friends with a gun shop owner and the ATF came down on him and during the entire trail. I swear on my mother's gravestone this is true. I still have the court transscrpits to proove it. The judge was a major anti gun judge and the defense was allowed 1 single wittness and the wittness was allowed to answer one question.That was it! For a 2 week trail. Needless to say he ended up serving 54 months at McMinnville Oregon. If I went into all the details, this would be a small book.

 

[billdeserthills]

According to the rare breed guy.

I'm not sure that means anything. I mean I can tell you exactly what happened in my first marriage. That doesn't mean any of it is true.

What's the difference, the ATF approved his design-- where does the ATF get off trying to change their decision after the fact?

 

[wired]

What's the difference, the ATF approved his design-- where does the ATF get off trying to change their decision after the fact?

They never approved the design.

 

[rdb241]

They never approved the design.

They did not need to get a letter of approval. They designed the trigger withing ATF's own deffinitions of what is or is not an MG. By staying within the rules, why would you need a letter of approval? Graves applied for this patend design as far back as 2014. The ATF knew 7 years ago this was coming.

 

[rdb241]

What's the difference, the ATF approved his design-- where does the ATF get off trying to change their decision after the fact?

They never applied for a letter of approval because it was not necessary. They designed thr trigger to stay with the legal rules that the ATF already has.

 

[wired]

According to them. That's the risk you take when you decide it's within the letter of the law unilaterally.

 

[rdb241]

According to them. That's the risk you take when you decide it's within the letter of the law unilaterally.

If you follow thw law when designing something, why is there a legal risk? Makes no sense that if you follow the presant law, there should be zero question. The rules were set and they followed them, period.

 

[wired]

If you follow thw law when designing something, why is there a legal risk? Makes no sense that if you follow the presant law, there should be zero question. The rules were set and they followed them, period.

Apparently there is a problem or we wouldn't be having this discussion and rare breed wouldn't be having to lawyer up

 

[rdb241]

Apparently there is a problem or we wouldn't be having this discussion and rare breed wouldn't be having to lawyer up

The PROBLEM is nothing more than the rate of fire the left anti gunners don't like. There is nothing in any ATF ruling that regulates rate of fire. The mechanical definition of what is or is not a MG does not apply to Rarebreed. That was the very same issue with the bump stocks.

 

[wired]

Yet here we are with a cease and desist and court dates .

 

[rdb241]

Yet here we are with a cease and desist and court dates .

You know, every time a subject that comes up about our 2A rights and who enforces things. All of your posts seem to be leaning towards the authoritarian perspective. Your respones seem to be for them and not our community. Is that your roll in life to be the devil's advocate and do exactly what you are told even if it is made up and against present written rules? The cease and desist was all made up. The ATF has not done ANY field testing to say they have determinded............What? If it was all true on the ATF side, then why can they not show any proof of what and when they tested anything? Why is the ATF trying to supress the defense and not allow them to present their case? Which by the way is a Constitutional right when defending one's self in a court of law.

 

[wired]

You know, every time a subject that comes up about our 2A rights and who enforces things. All of your posts seem to be leaning towards the authoritarian perspective. Your respones seem to be for them and not our community. Is that your roll in life to be the devil's advocate and do exactly what you are told even if it is made up and against present written rules? The cease and desist was all made up. The ATF has not done ANY field testing to say they have determinded............What? If it was all true on the ATF side, then why can they not show any proof of what and when they tested anything? Why is the ATF trying to supress the defense and not allow them to present their case? Which by the way is a Constitutional right when defending one's self in a court of law.

I really dont see the "2nd amendment constitutional right" thing as being something that EVER holds up in court. The judge will decide what's admissible. My opinion means squat. ZERO to do with what is actually happening on the ground. RB has been issued a cease and desist. They are fighting an uphill battle in court . Those are facts. I dont virtue signal. They have a product that is on the edge of legality that has nothing due to its reset capability. Its the fact that the trigger bar acts as a safety sear. Safety sears are widely considered auto sears in other guns. That safety sear releases the trigger to be pulled that has never actually been released from pressure. I think they have a 50/50 shot of making it through the court saga.

To be honest I think Rare Breed is inflating a lot of this drama to sell triggers.

EDIT: I will add I was a 02/07 SOT for 20 years. I have had friends and clients go to federal prison over NFA charges. I cross my T's and dot my I's and I dont fool around with the men in black and try cutesy stuff with them. They have no sense of humor. I have several of the FRT triggers. If they do get ruled to be machine guns they are going away as soon as they can.

 

[CamoDeafie]

1. Did the FBI/ATF raid Rare Breed?
2. Did they get served criminal search warrants?
3. Have they been served subpoenas for customer information?
4. Have any customer who bought the triggers been arrested/served notices to either destroy, return or give triggers to ATF?

Rare Breed only got a cease and desist order. But nothing else. Rare Breed initiated the lawsuit against the ATF I believe. Not sure if the ATF filed a countersuit/criminal charges?
Correct me if I'm wrong.

The cease and desist order seems to indicate that the ATF "believes they(Rare Breed) are doing illegal activities," technically illegal if not FFL SOT 07 licensed... but... its up to the Courts to determine if the FRT15 trigger really breaks NFA1934 laws or not... the ATF doesn't have legal authority to legislate nor to do judicial things. They however are authorized to enforce Federal gun laws and tax laws.

If the trigger really is illegal, why have there been no other actions done to pursue criminal charges and the like?